[sXVUOUVC]

Hi everyone.

I came to this forum after posting a question concerning 'attachment' on another website and Aloka-D-Aloka kindly guided me here. My question at the time was concerning attachment and if then it was somehow un-buddhist to be attached to my partner whom I love very much or for that matter anyone you love deeply? When I asked this question on the other site, it only led to a tit-for-tat argument with two other users about things that had nothing to do with my original question!

[dhrishiasv]

Our relationships are a good mark to where we are in relation to our spiritual path (whatever that is). If your partner was unhappy with you and decides to leave you for your best friend. How are you going to feel? Probably like crap. But if you really loved them you would be happy for them regardless. Now this is imho practically impossible, unless you're enlightened haha.

So how do we deal with partners and our attachments? We just keep at it with our practice whatever that may be. When you keep the soil well and water the seeds often, then good fruits will spring. So see how you act towards your partner. Are you jealous at times? Are you angry? Are you happy? Are you indifferent? These are perfect opportunities to use mindfulness. Watch how you feel, what you think, and what you are doing. How does your body feel when you feel jealous, angry, or happy? Etc.

The people closest to us are our teachers. Since we are around them the most, what we say and do matters the most.
It's often we say we love and we do for the most part love the people closest to us. But we often treat them like "shit".

Most romantic relationships end like that. One moment you love them. One moment you hate them. Given some time all things see the opposite.

It is what it is though. You shouldn't totally detach from people or desires, because that is the other extreme. It's okay to have desires. Do they benefit you and others? Is this desires worth it?

It is all about balance. The middle way. Not detaching. Not attaching. Just being mindful of what arises and falls. Then from that vantage point you can choose what you want to do. But make sure your intent is clear and that it isn't going to harm you or others. With that condition, right action and speech come naturally.

Keep meditating!

[exschke]

There's nothing wrong with loving other people, its when we cling too hard to them and have too many expectations that difficulties arise.

With regard to lay couples the Buddha said:


"If both husband & wife want to see one another not only in the present life but also in the life to come, they should be in tune [with each other] in conviction, in tune in virtue, in tune in generosity, and in tune in discernment. Then they will see one another not only in the present life but also in the life to come."

Husband & wife, both of them
having conviction,
being responsive,
being restrained,
living by the Dhamma,
addressing each other
with loving words:
they benefit in manifold ways.
To them comes bliss.
Their enemies are dejected
when both are in tune in virtue.
Having followed the Dhamma here in this world,
both in tune in precepts & practices,
they delight in the world of the devas,
enjoying the pleasures they desire.


(AN 4.55 Samajivina Sutta: Living in Tune )

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit....055.than.html

[WhiliaStelt]

There's nothing wrong with loving other people, its when we cling too hard to them and have too many expectations that difficulties arise.

With regard to lay couples the Buddha said:


"If both husband & wife want to see one another not only in the present life but also in the life to come, they should be in tune [with each other] in conviction, in tune in virtue, in tune in generosity, and in tune in discernment. Then they will see one another not only in the present life but also in the life to come."

Husband & wife, both of them
having conviction,
being responsive,
being restrained,
living by the Dhamma,
addressing each other
with loving words:
they benefit in manifold ways.
To them comes bliss.
Their enemies are dejected
when both are in tune in virtue.
Having followed the Dhamma here in this world,
both in tune in precepts & practices,
they delight in the world of the devas,
enjoying the pleasures they desire.


(AN 4.55 Samajivina Sutta: Living in Tune )

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit....055.than.html

What a beautiful sutta Aloka!

Thanks!

In the sutta is everything said. No need for more arguments. Just two Zen'ts:

I am in a relationship with a wonderfull man. When [many] expectations arose between us, all becomes a mess; dukkha originates, attachments are evident and then mindfulness is needed to bring things into its proper site again. I think we both are growing under the Dhamma in this way.

[XVzrlWIv]

Those few replies have show more wisdom and knowledge than the 30+ I must have had on the other messageboard! Thank you! I would still be interested to hear how other members, especially those in a relationship feel.

Thanks you.
EG

[TorryJens]

My question at the time was concerning attachment and if then it was somehow un-buddhist to be attached to my partner whom I love very much or for that matter anyone you love deeply?

Hi EinsteinsGhost,
Attachment can be egotistical at one extreme and unconditional at the other. I guess dharma shunts us from the egotistical end across to the unconditional end. I'm married with kids and I don't feel that Buddhism compromises my love for my family. If it did, I'd dump it.

[kesFockplek]

Thank you so much - I feel much the same way as you whilst understanding the difference between egotistical clinging and unconditional love. I have also been looking at a separate thread on the General Buddhist discussion section started by 'snowdrop' which mainly centered around grief at the loss of a loved one which I found very useful.

I am just starting out on this path, but I must say that the whole concept of non-attachment is philosophically the hardest to grasp. To a simple, flawed human being, especially having been raised in a 'grasping' western culture it seems counter-intuitive! But the idea must be touching something deep down otherwise I would have lost interest in Buddhist thought years ago.

EG

[Relsenlilky]

If it did, I'd dump it.

True Kris!

[Aluback]

I have also been looking at a separate thread on the General Buddhist discussion section started by 'snowdrop' which mainly centered around grief at the loss of a loved one which I found very useful.

That's probably the thread "Is the liberated person's lack of grief a cop-out?" started by Snowmelt.

[MortgFinsJohnQ]

I think that healthy relationships are an opportunity to practice love and selflessness

Best,
Laura

[kmjbbT3U]

As far as being in a relationship without the kind of unhealthy attachment I see Buddhism teaching the hazards of, I'd like to bring up how I personally approach my own relationship.

A lot of people believe that (among other ridiculous criteria) a relationship has to be forever to "count." Look at the couple in AN 4.55 Samajivina Sutta: Living in Tune. The advice they were given is excellent, but I'd go one further and say that demanding, needing, or expecting that their relationship be eternal is itself a sign of a problem. Like all things, a relationship is impermanent just because that is the way things are. However, just because it isn't around forever or may not be good forever doesn't mean it wasn't good now.

My partner and I have been together for over six years, and at no point have we promised to be together forever. Our vows didn't put any kind of time frame. Our vows are our vows for as long as they work, and when they stop working we will either renegotiate our commitment or stop having one altogether. Neither option means that the time we spent was somehow delegitimized by its lack of eternal permanence.

Relationships of all kinds can be tremendous learning opportunities. I know with certainty that I am a better person now than when I met my partner, and our relationship continues to give me opportunities to learn and practice lessons I have learned both from dharma practice and other sources. I've learned more this way than I ever could have from monastic life, so I think that neither I nor the Buddha have any room to complain about romantic bonds or their effect on dharma practice.

[RozzyLiu]

Those few replies have show more wisdom and knowledge than the 30+ I must have had on the other messageboard! Thank you! I would still be interested to hear how other members, especially those in a relationship feel.

Thanks you.
EG

Thanks for starting this thread Einsteinsghost. I too wondered similar things when I first started learning about Buddhism. I was discouraged to think that I should try and 'detach' myself from the person I love too. Im glad to see the see the great replies here by everyone, and I think they are all right. As long as you aren't attaching yourself to expectations and/or negative traits associated with your attachment (such as jealousy), then its perfectly fine.

Personally, I think its okay to love anyone you want, for any [good] reason that you want (whether it be love for family, friends, or partner). I think as everyone touched on, you just have to tie mindfulness into it. With my relationship, I recognize and understand my attachment. I can see that my love is pure and real, and not based on superficial or short-term things. And I know that eventually that person will die, I will die, they could leave, etc. So I try not to 'cling' with my love, so that it will not cause suffering, but just simply 'have love', and even if that person leaves my life, I will be happy for the love we shared together. So I think being aware of that and accepting that, helps me understand the nature of the relationship, and the true nature of my love. I am open and honest with my partner, as she is with me. There is no reason for me to be jealous of anything she does or anyone else around her. And even when its little things such as her asking me to do a chore, or even perhaps 'nagging' every now and then, I try to stay mindful of the situation, interpret small moments of opportunity for resentment, and then let them fade so that I am still left with just my raw love, and no negative harbouring emotions like resentment.

Doing those things for me seems to work. I have yet to get into a big arguement with my partner (Knock on wood lol) and we have been together for 2 years. I am getting married to her this July and I truly believe through simply being mindful of all events, good and bad, we can make the relationship last as long as we want, and not become a part of that 50% divorce rate many couples are experiencing today.

I dont know if I explained that well enough, or if others do that. But thats what works for me, so I figured id share my personal opinions on the matter.

[cinggooft]

I think its okay to love anyone you want

Hi Balgore,

I remember that in my youth years I was deeply touched by Erich Fromm's "Art of Loving" where there are four conditions for true love: care, responsibility, knowledge and respect. I think it goes hand by hand with the aim of what the Buddha taught.

[Tauntenue]

See below.

[Pwy9egVW]

Thank you so much - I feel much the same way as you whilst understanding the difference between egotistical clinging and unconditional love. I have also been looking at a separate thread on the General Buddhist discussion section started by 'snowdrop' which mainly centered around grief at the loss of a loved one which I found very useful.

A Snowmelt by any other name would smell as sweet.

[t78VPkdO]

In any relationship there are usually 6 people involved:
1. The person you imagine yourself to be
2. The person your partner imagines him/her self to be
3. The person you imagine your partner to be
4. The person your partner imagines you to be
5. The person you really are
6. The person your partner really is.

So, with all of these people, there is certainly a lot of room for attachment. The closer these people resemble each other, the better the relationship will be. But if you are attached to, say, the way we only imagine ourselves and each other, then there will be problems. Attachment requires two parts. So, the more 'one' you become with your partner, the more that love becomes an expression of that oneness and not about attachment.

[gIWnXYkw]

In any relationship there are usually 6 people involved: [...]

I think I can add a couple more:
- the person you want your partner to be
- the person your partner wants you to be.