Reincarnation possibility - DiscussWorldIssues - Socio-Economic Religion and Political Uncensored Debate

**DYjLN8rF** · 07-11-2012, 12:01 AM

There was a time when the world was flat because the logical idea that everything sits on it and that if these things were upside down they all would fall off from the world.

Until one day a man saw that the world was round, which seems very illogical because if the world was round then the four great oceans along with all the bodied water will fall off from the world, therefore everyone reject the idea that the world was round.

The idea that the world was round back then, does not seem a possibility but just because something seems impossible does not mean it is, until proven that it is.

In the same way as reincarnation or the idea when the body dies, the mind lives on. This idea seems impossible because when we witness the death of others we cannot see that his mind live on or as we are alive, we cannot experience death.

No one has proven or disprove the idea of reincarnation or the idea when the body dies, the mind lives on therefore reincarnation remains a possibility.

Many people claim of near death experience that mostly occurs during an operation in the hospital. They can tell the surgeon what they saw and how the surgeon does operation on them while they were unconscious. You will find many claims on YouTube.

Many people claim to remember their past lives especially during a past life regression session with a hypnotist. Much evidence has supported this idea. Here is one.
http://www.inlightimes.com/archives/.../past-life.htm

Many cases of little children who remember their past lives and some of them made it to the news. Here is the link that is called afterlife science; it reports many cases of little children who remember their past lives.
http://www.victorzammit.com/evidence...rpastlives.htm

Many sutras also support this idea of reincarnation.

We cannot say there is reincarnation because we have no proof of it.
We also cannot say there is no reincarnation because we have no proof of that either.

Without the idea of reincarnation, one rejects all the sutras that talks about reincarnation and admire most sutras that lacks of the idea of reincarnation.

With the idea of reincarnation, one may find benefits from all the sutras.

**soydaykam** · 07-11-2012, 12:51 AM

No one has proven or disprove the idea of reincarnation

I think its just Hindus and Tibetan Buddhists who believe in 'reincarnation'. Other traditions use the word 'rebirth'.

Many people claim to remember their past lives especially during a past life regression session with a hypnotist

Here we go again - past life regression and then Ian Stevenson! ( sorry, I don't mean to be rude but we've had past threads on this topic )

I'm a qualified hypnotherapist and 'past life regression' is totally unreliable and shouldn't be taken seriously.

Please also look up the word 'cryptomnesia'.

Regarding Ian Stevenson, this review of his book 'Children who remember past lives' is interesting:

http://www.skepticreport.com/sr/?p=482

and also here:

http://www.skepticreport.com/sr/?p=481

**neotheMit** · 07-11-2012, 01:41 AM

Anything is possible..

**ChyFDjfed** · 07-11-2012, 01:41 AM

With the idea of reincarnation, one may find benefits from all the sutras.

hi friend

i have my doubts about the sentiment expressed above

in my reading, the core buddhist suttas are about a mind free from 'self' belief. i think if the mind can be placed in the state free from self belief or self conception then the notion of reincarnation can be examined from that perspective

as for benefiting from the idea of reincarnation, can you kindly list the benefits you perceive come from holding such an idea?

thank you

with metta

**CevepBiageCefm** · 07-11-2012, 02:03 AM

posted by Aloka-D
I'm a qualified hypnotherapist and 'past life regression' is totally unreliable and shouldn't be taken seriously. You may be right. I only throw these ideas out there just to give example how reincarnation can be poissible.

**Queuerriptota** · 07-11-2012, 02:50 AM

as far as "reincarnation"/rebirth goes, it always fascinates me that certain cultures argue its true and others argue its "impossible", but i would only remind folks to never try and guess what a culture/religion/people believes just because of how they talk about these things...

in hasidism you will *never* hear us sit around and talk about "past lives" (i honestly have never heard anyone mention it EVER) but at night our first prayer will offer forgiveness to anyone who has hurt us, sinned against us, were big doo-doo heads, etc. and say whether they did these things "by speech or by deed, in this incarnation or any other"

its not that past lives are impossible they just aren't that big a deal compared to any other, like any life in all of history of Universe is just as precious, we just have to concentrate on right-now....

nameste!

**PhilipBartew** · 07-11-2012, 03:15 AM

The teachings I have received regarding 'reincarnation' are not at odds with no-self. As such I am sure many would posit that these teachings cannot therefore really be regarding 'reincarnation' or in fact re-birth without a self to continue.
We can often talk past each other with terms such as reincarnation and re-birth when we may in fact mean different things from each other.

**Enladalusange** · 07-11-2012, 04:23 AM

The teachings I have received regarding 'reincarnation' are not at odds with no-self. As such I am sure many would posit that these teachings cannot therefore really be regarding 'reincarnation' or in fact re-birth without a self to continue.

hi Ngagpa

what 'thing/s' are you actually proposing is reborn here? further, how does this impersonal notion of rebirth motivate & provide incentive for buddhist practise?

my response was to the idea that reincarnation belief would benefit all the sutras, that is all. it did not negate rebirth/reincarnation

however, i challenge you to find & post a teaching of buddha where he taught rebirth without personal incentive

regards

**excivaamome** · 07-11-2012, 05:28 AM

I am not proposing that things are re-born.
I am not sure what it provides in terms of an incentive, for me such an incentive is not necessary.

I did not read you post as negating either re-birth or reincarnation, and I do also wonder how such concepts can benefit all Sutras.

however, i challenge you to find & post a teaching of buddha where he taught rebirth without personal incentive may I ask why?

**Chubrehege** · 07-11-2012, 05:44 AM

Well, i suppose I am saying a human being practices religion with some kind of motive. For example, the not-self teachings may be embraced with the motivation to end suffering. Similarly, the rebirth teachings may be embraced for similar motives. I have asked in two posts, so far, what are the motives & benefits of embracing rebirth belief and also how can such motives & benefits be divorced from a personal motive or benefit?

The non-personal nature of anatta is itself the means to extinguish suffering. As for 'impersonal rebirth', I am unable to perceive how benefits can be derived from such a belief.

I can perceive benefits from personal rebirth belief but not from impersonal rebirth belief thus i ask

**Vomephems** · 07-11-2012, 05:55 AM

I think its just Hindus and Tibetan Buddhists who believe in 'reincarnation'. Other traditions use the word 'rebirth'.

I'm pretty sure that Tibetan Buddhists don't believe in reincarnation in the common sense of the term, ie, an immortal soul that is reincarnated. Just like all Buddhist they believe in emptiness which precludes an eternal soul that has self existence.

I have posted this before but here it is again.

Reincarnation still holds onto the concept of a "self" that is eternal. The term re-birth works well I think even though it is not perfect. All things are reborn, not just sentient beings but also non-sentient. Take a tree. We (cause) cut it down (condition) and make a chair (effect). Later someone burns the chair and now we see ash. Cause = someone, condition = burn wood, effect = ash. The tree is a tree, the chair is a chair, and ash is ash. Also, you could say that the tree is not a tree, the chair is not a chair and ash is not ash. One did not become the other but they are still the same.

Karma: Cause, Condition, Effect
Cause is, that which ACTS
Condition is, that which is ACTED UPON
Effect is: the RESULT of the action upon that which was acted upon

We are not different from the tree/chair/ash. We act, Karma comes into play and the result is what we call rebirth. There is no permanent self that continues forever. Just as there are traces of the tree/chair/ash so our traces pass from one birth to the next. "I" am never reborn only the traces of "I". When "I" am reborn the "I" is not the same, it is different, just as the tree/chair/ash are different, yet it is still "me" just as it is still the tree/chair/ash. There is no difference between my body and mind. It is one thing. Delusion is the separation of ourselves, others and even the universe into parts. Nothing exists apart from everything else. Of course this is my opinion and understanding from studying. There is no empirical evidence to prove it and none to disprove it.

Hands Palm to Palm,
Rhysman

**Creelaleps** · 07-11-2012, 06:14 AM

I'm pretty sure that Tibetan Buddhists don't believe in reincarnation in the common sense of the term, ie, an immortal soul that is reincarnated.

Please explain how you think there is a 14th 'reincarnation' of the Dalai Lama then, Rhysman.

**AdipexAdipex** · 07-11-2012, 06:17 AM

I'm pretty sure that Tibetan Buddhists don't believe in reincarnation in the common sense of the term, ie, an immortal soul that is reincarnated. Just like all Buddhist they believe in emptiness which precludes an eternal soul that has self existence.

I have posted this before but here it is again.

Of course this is my opinion and understanding from studying. There is no empirical evidence to prove it and none to disprove it.

Hands Palm to Palm,
Rhysman

Some good TB Sources on Rebirth / Reincarnation are the Phowa Practices and The Tibetan Book of the Daed

Also the "Tibetan Book of Living & Dying" gives a very good explaination of this topic.

I know that both of these sources are very tradition specific but since TB has been mentioned in this thread in makes xsense to put them in.

All the Best

**vansVoish** · 07-11-2012, 06:32 AM

Some good TB Sources on Rebirth / Reincarnation are the Phowa Practices and The Tibetan Book of the Daed

Also the "Tibetan Book of Living & Dying" gives a very good explaination of this topic.

I know that both of these sources are very tradition specific but since TB has been mentioned in this thread in makes xsense to put them in.

All the Best

Can you give an example of actual concrete evidence for reincarnation in the Tibetan Book of the Dead ?

Also the Buddha didn't teach those practices, they were divised by Guru Rinpoche (Padmasambhava) who was an Indian tantric guru who went to Tibet in the 9th century.

I have done all of the Bardo practices in a retreat - but I don't have any actual evidence for reincarnation.

Being told about something and doing related teachings and practices doesn't actually mean it exists.

I was told as a small child that when my first teeth fell out, if I put them in a special place before I went to sleep, the tooth fairy would come for them when I was asleep and leave a coin for me. So I believed in the tooth fairy and followed the instructions...and then sure enough when I awoke there was a coin instead of my tooth.......

**markoiutrfffdsa** · 07-11-2012, 06:38 AM

Please explain how you think there is a 14th 'reincarnation' of the Dalai Lama then, Rhysman.

My understanding is that the selection of the next Dalai Lama has been a cultural custom of the Tibetan people and involves a socialisation process. There has been much discussion about whether this will continue and whether the current Dalai Lama will be the last.

This is not inconsistent with Buddhist understandings about self.

No-one generally disputes the existence of the conventional level of "self" that we all experience in our day-to-day life. Questions arise, however, when we try to understand what that "self" or "I" really is.

Chandrakirti used the example of a chariot in his Guide to the Middle Way (Madhyamakavatara).

When we subject the concept of a chariot to analysis, we are never going to find some kind of metaphysically or substantially real chariot that is independent of the parts that constitute the chariot. However, this does not mean that the chariot does not exist.

Likewise, when we subject "self," specifically the nature of "self," to such an analysis, we cannot find a "self" independent of the mind and body that constitutes the existence of the individual or the being.

This understanding of the "self" as a dependently originated being must also be extended to our understanding of other sentient beings.

Other sentient beings are, once again, designations that are dependent upon bodily and mental existence.

The Dalai Lama exists because of the previous Dalai Lama and social processes in Tibetan culture.

**Nwxffgke** · 07-11-2012, 06:42 AM

Please explain how you think there is a 14th 'reincarnation' of the Dalai Lama then, Rhysman.

My understanding is.......

Thanks but I was asking Rhysman.....

**enteltcheft** · 07-11-2012, 06:48 AM

Thanks but I was asking Rhysman.

Hope my post did not offend, I thought my understanding may add to the discussion.

**pseusawbappem** · 07-11-2012, 08:02 AM

Well, i suppose I am saying a human being practices religion with some kind of motive. For example, the not-self teachings may be embraced with the motivation to end suffering. Similarly, the rebirth teachings may be embraced for similar motives. I have asked in two posts, so far, what are the motives & benefits of embracing rebirth belief and also how can such motives & benefits be divorced from a personal motive or benefit?

The non-personal nature of anatta is itself the means to extinguish suffering. As for 'impersonal rebirth', I am unable to perceive how benefits can be derived from such a belief.

I can perceive benefits from personal rebirth belief but not from impersonal rebirth belief thus i ask

It is taught that we are composed of the 5 Skandhas and that they are sunyata. It might be useful, in relationship to your question of 'impersonal rebirth', to consider the scenario that the Form Skandha becomes 'unobservable' (I hate to use the word existence/non-existence here.), and later 'becomes observable' with a different form. During this 'transition of the Form Skandha', the remain 4 Skandhas continue doing whatever it is that they do.

In this scenario, what might appear to be 'rebirth/reincarnation' is still the same 'anatta,' and whatever benefits you associate with the teaching of anatta applies in this scenario as well.

After all, Skandhas are impermanent and sunyata, and that means they can change.

Now, whether or not the 5 Skandhas can exist without Form (even temporarily) is another topic that will not get any resolution here, so I will refrain from comment on it.

**thehhhyips** · 07-11-2012, 08:46 AM

A Buddhist friend of mine once argued that motivation for becoming a parent was wanting to replicate myself or have this sense of reincarnation. For me having children was and continues to be a good lesson in impermanence.

**beonecenry** · 07-11-2012, 09:49 AM

Just as there are traces of the tree/chair/ash so our traces pass from one birth to the next. "I" am never reborn only the traces of "I". When "I" am reborn the "I" is not the same, it is different, just as the tree/chair/ash are different, yet it is still "me" just as it is still the tree/chair/ash.

I'm puzzled so forgive me for asking a question here. When the tree is turned into a chair and the chair is burnt to create ash, there is a continuation of the carbon and nitrogen and whatever else is in there. At extremes, these may convert into energy and then back into something else but there is still continuation of a sort. That sounds fine. But how does that map onto the self? In this case (the self) we're talking about something which is non-material so I'm struggling to see how the analogy works because there's nothing to convert into anything else. My body might feed the flowers and the rocks and the bugs (as that great line from Munch has it: "From my rotting body, flowers shall grow and I am in them and that is eternity. ") but I just can't see how any 'self' gets in on the act.

07-11-2012, 12:01 AM	#1
DYjLN8rF Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 448 Senior Member	Reincarnation possibility There was a time when the world was flat because the logical idea that everything sits on it and that if these things were upside down they all would fall off from the world. Until one day a man saw that the world was round, which seems very illogical because if the world was round then the four great oceans along with all the bodied water will fall off from the world, therefore everyone reject the idea that the world was round. The idea that the world was round back then, does not seem a possibility but just because something seems impossible does not mean it is, until proven that it is. In the same way as reincarnation or the idea when the body dies, the mind lives on. This idea seems impossible because when we witness the death of others we cannot see that his mind live on or as we are alive, we cannot experience death. No one has proven or disprove the idea of reincarnation or the idea when the body dies, the mind lives on therefore reincarnation remains a possibility. Many people claim of near death experience that mostly occurs during an operation in the hospital. They can tell the surgeon what they saw and how the surgeon does operation on them while they were unconscious. You will find many claims on YouTube. Many people claim to remember their past lives especially during a past life regression session with a hypnotist. Much evidence has supported this idea. Here is one. http://www.inlightimes.com/archives/.../past-life.htm Many cases of little children who remember their past lives and some of them made it to the news. Here is the link that is called afterlife science; it reports many cases of little children who remember their past lives. http://www.victorzammit.com/evidence...rpastlives.htm Many sutras also support this idea of reincarnation. We cannot say there is reincarnation because we have no proof of it. We also cannot say there is no reincarnation because we have no proof of that either. Without the idea of reincarnation, one rejects all the sutras that talks about reincarnation and admire most sutras that lacks of the idea of reincarnation. With the idea of reincarnation, one may find benefits from all the sutras. Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
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07-11-2012, 12:51 AM	#2
soydaykam Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 523 Senior Member	No one has proven or disprove the idea of reincarnation I think its just Hindus and Tibetan Buddhists who believe in 'reincarnation'. Other traditions use the word 'rebirth'. Many people claim to remember their past lives especially during a past life regression session with a hypnotist Here we go again - past life regression and then Ian Stevenson! ( sorry, I don't mean to be rude but we've had past threads on this topic ) I'm a qualified hypnotherapist and 'past life regression' is totally unreliable and shouldn't be taken seriously. Please also look up the word 'cryptomnesia'. Regarding Ian Stevenson, this review of his book 'Children who remember past lives' is interesting: http://www.skepticreport.com/sr/?p=482 and also here: http://www.skepticreport.com/sr/?p=481 Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

07-11-2012, 01:41 AM	#3
neotheMit Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 500 Senior Member	Anything is possible.. Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
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07-11-2012, 01:41 AM	#4
ChyFDjfed Join Date Nov 2005 Posts 466 Senior Member	With the idea of reincarnation, one may find benefits from all the sutras. hi friend i have my doubts about the sentiment expressed above in my reading, the core buddhist suttas are about a mind free from 'self' belief. i think if the mind can be placed in the state free from self belief or self conception then the notion of reincarnation can be examined from that perspective as for benefiting from the idea of reincarnation, can you kindly list the benefits you perceive come from holding such an idea? thank you with metta Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
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07-11-2012, 02:03 AM	#5
CevepBiageCefm Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 589 Senior Member	posted by Aloka-D I'm a qualified hypnotherapist and 'past life regression' is totally unreliable and shouldn't be taken seriously. You may be right. I only throw these ideas out there just to give example how reincarnation can be poissible. Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

07-11-2012, 02:50 AM	#6
Queuerriptota Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 346 Senior Member	as far as "reincarnation"/rebirth goes, it always fascinates me that certain cultures argue its true and others argue its "impossible", but i would only remind folks to never try and guess what a culture/religion/people believes just because of how they talk about these things... in hasidism you will never hear us sit around and talk about "past lives" (i honestly have never heard anyone mention it EVER) but at night our first prayer will offer forgiveness to anyone who has hurt us, sinned against us, were big doo-doo heads, etc. and say whether they did these things "by speech or by deed, in this incarnation or any other" its not that past lives are impossible they just aren't that big a deal compared to any other, like any life in all of history of Universe is just as precious, we just have to concentrate on right-now.... nameste! Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

07-11-2012, 03:15 AM	#7
PhilipBartew Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 526 Senior Member	The teachings I have received regarding 'reincarnation' are not at odds with no-self. As such I am sure many would posit that these teachings cannot therefore really be regarding 'reincarnation' or in fact re-birth without a self to continue. We can often talk past each other with terms such as reincarnation and re-birth when we may in fact mean different things from each other. Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

07-11-2012, 04:23 AM	#8
Enladalusange Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 332 Senior Member	The teachings I have received regarding 'reincarnation' are not at odds with no-self. As such I am sure many would posit that these teachings cannot therefore really be regarding 'reincarnation' or in fact re-birth without a self to continue. hi Ngagpa what 'thing/s' are you actually proposing is reborn here? further, how does this impersonal notion of rebirth motivate & provide incentive for buddhist practise? my response was to the idea that reincarnation belief would benefit all the sutras, that is all. it did not negate rebirth/reincarnation however, i challenge you to find & post a teaching of buddha where he taught rebirth without personal incentive regards Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

07-11-2012, 05:28 AM	#9
excivaamome Join Date Nov 2005 Posts 381 Senior Member	I am not proposing that things are re-born. I am not sure what it provides in terms of an incentive, for me such an incentive is not necessary. I did not read you post as negating either re-birth or reincarnation, and I do also wonder how such concepts can benefit all Sutras. however, i challenge you to find & post a teaching of buddha where he taught rebirth without personal incentive may I ask why? Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

07-11-2012, 05:44 AM	#10
Chubrehege Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 485 Senior Member	Well, i suppose I am saying a human being practices religion with some kind of motive. For example, the not-self teachings may be embraced with the motivation to end suffering. Similarly, the rebirth teachings may be embraced for similar motives. I have asked in two posts, so far, what are the motives & benefits of embracing rebirth belief and also how can such motives & benefits be divorced from a personal motive or benefit? The non-personal nature of anatta is itself the means to extinguish suffering. As for 'impersonal rebirth', I am unable to perceive how benefits can be derived from such a belief. I can perceive benefits from personal rebirth belief but not from impersonal rebirth belief thus i ask Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

07-11-2012, 05:55 AM	#11
Vomephems Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 727 Senior Member	I think its just Hindus and Tibetan Buddhists who believe in 'reincarnation'. Other traditions use the word 'rebirth'. I'm pretty sure that Tibetan Buddhists don't believe in reincarnation in the common sense of the term, ie, an immortal soul that is reincarnated. Just like all Buddhist they believe in emptiness which precludes an eternal soul that has self existence. I have posted this before but here it is again. Reincarnation still holds onto the concept of a "self" that is eternal. The term re-birth works well I think even though it is not perfect. All things are reborn, not just sentient beings but also non-sentient. Take a tree. We (cause) cut it down (condition) and make a chair (effect). Later someone burns the chair and now we see ash. Cause = someone, condition = burn wood, effect = ash. The tree is a tree, the chair is a chair, and ash is ash. Also, you could say that the tree is not a tree, the chair is not a chair and ash is not ash. One did not become the other but they are still the same. Karma: Cause, Condition, Effect Cause is, that which ACTS Condition is, that which is ACTED UPON Effect is: the RESULT of the action upon that which was acted upon We are not different from the tree/chair/ash. We act, Karma comes into play and the result is what we call rebirth. There is no permanent self that continues forever. Just as there are traces of the tree/chair/ash so our traces pass from one birth to the next. "I" am never reborn only the traces of "I". When "I" am reborn the "I" is not the same, it is different, just as the tree/chair/ash are different, yet it is still "me" just as it is still the tree/chair/ash. There is no difference between my body and mind. It is one thing. Delusion is the separation of ourselves, others and even the universe into parts. Nothing exists apart from everything else. Of course this is my opinion and understanding from studying. There is no empirical evidence to prove it and none to disprove it. Hands Palm to Palm, Rhysman Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
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07-11-2012, 06:14 AM	#12
Creelaleps Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 356 Senior Member	I'm pretty sure that Tibetan Buddhists don't believe in reincarnation in the common sense of the term, ie, an immortal soul that is reincarnated. Please explain how you think there is a 14th 'reincarnation' of the Dalai Lama then, Rhysman. Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

07-11-2012, 06:17 AM	#13
AdipexAdipex Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 444 Senior Member	I'm pretty sure that Tibetan Buddhists don't believe in reincarnation in the common sense of the term, ie, an immortal soul that is reincarnated. Just like all Buddhist they believe in emptiness which precludes an eternal soul that has self existence. I have posted this before but here it is again. Of course this is my opinion and understanding from studying. There is no empirical evidence to prove it and none to disprove it. Hands Palm to Palm, Rhysman Some good TB Sources on Rebirth / Reincarnation are the Phowa Practices and The Tibetan Book of the Daed Also the "Tibetan Book of Living & Dying" gives a very good explaination of this topic. I know that both of these sources are very tradition specific but since TB has been mentioned in this thread in makes xsense to put them in. All the Best Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
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07-11-2012, 06:32 AM	#14
vansVoish Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 500 Senior Member	Some good TB Sources on Rebirth / Reincarnation are the Phowa Practices and The Tibetan Book of the Daed Also the "Tibetan Book of Living & Dying" gives a very good explaination of this topic. I know that both of these sources are very tradition specific but since TB has been mentioned in this thread in makes xsense to put them in. All the Best Can you give an example of actual concrete evidence for reincarnation in the Tibetan Book of the Dead ? Also the Buddha didn't teach those practices, they were divised by Guru Rinpoche (Padmasambhava) who was an Indian tantric guru who went to Tibet in the 9th century. I have done all of the Bardo practices in a retreat - but I don't have any actual evidence for reincarnation. Being told about something and doing related teachings and practices doesn't actually mean it exists. I was told as a small child that when my first teeth fell out, if I put them in a special place before I went to sleep, the tooth fairy would come for them when I was asleep and leave a coin for me. So I believed in the tooth fairy and followed the instructions...and then sure enough when I awoke there was a coin instead of my tooth....... Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

07-11-2012, 06:38 AM	#15
markoiutrfffdsa Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 362 Senior Member	Please explain how you think there is a 14th 'reincarnation' of the Dalai Lama then, Rhysman. My understanding is that the selection of the next Dalai Lama has been a cultural custom of the Tibetan people and involves a socialisation process. There has been much discussion about whether this will continue and whether the current Dalai Lama will be the last. This is not inconsistent with Buddhist understandings about self. No-one generally disputes the existence of the conventional level of "self" that we all experience in our day-to-day life. Questions arise, however, when we try to understand what that "self" or "I" really is. Chandrakirti used the example of a chariot in his Guide to the Middle Way (Madhyamakavatara). When we subject the concept of a chariot to analysis, we are never going to find some kind of metaphysically or substantially real chariot that is independent of the parts that constitute the chariot. However, this does not mean that the chariot does not exist. Likewise, when we subject "self," specifically the nature of "self," to such an analysis, we cannot find a "self" independent of the mind and body that constitutes the existence of the individual or the being. This understanding of the "self" as a dependently originated being must also be extended to our understanding of other sentient beings. Other sentient beings are, once again, designations that are dependent upon bodily and mental existence. The Dalai Lama exists because of the previous Dalai Lama and social processes in Tibetan culture. Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
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07-11-2012, 06:42 AM	#16
Nwxffgke Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 550 Senior Member	Please explain how you think there is a 14th 'reincarnation' of the Dalai Lama then, Rhysman. My understanding is....... Thanks but I was asking Rhysman..... Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
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07-11-2012, 06:48 AM	#17
enteltcheft Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 422 Senior Member	Thanks but I was asking Rhysman. Hope my post did not offend, I thought my understanding may add to the discussion. Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
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07-11-2012, 08:02 AM	#18
pseusawbappem Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 472 Senior Member	Well, i suppose I am saying a human being practices religion with some kind of motive. For example, the not-self teachings may be embraced with the motivation to end suffering. Similarly, the rebirth teachings may be embraced for similar motives. I have asked in two posts, so far, what are the motives & benefits of embracing rebirth belief and also how can such motives & benefits be divorced from a personal motive or benefit? The non-personal nature of anatta is itself the means to extinguish suffering. As for 'impersonal rebirth', I am unable to perceive how benefits can be derived from such a belief. I can perceive benefits from personal rebirth belief but not from impersonal rebirth belief thus i ask It is taught that we are composed of the 5 Skandhas and that they are sunyata. It might be useful, in relationship to your question of 'impersonal rebirth', to consider the scenario that the Form Skandha becomes 'unobservable' (I hate to use the word existence/non-existence here.), and later 'becomes observable' with a different form. During this 'transition of the Form Skandha', the remain 4 Skandhas continue doing whatever it is that they do. In this scenario, what might appear to be 'rebirth/reincarnation' is still the same 'anatta,' and whatever benefits you associate with the teaching of anatta applies in this scenario as well. After all, Skandhas are impermanent and sunyata, and that means they can change. Now, whether or not the 5 Skandhas can exist without Form (even temporarily) is another topic that will not get any resolution here, so I will refrain from comment on it. Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
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07-11-2012, 08:46 AM	#19
thehhhyips Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 424 Senior Member	A Buddhist friend of mine once argued that motivation for becoming a parent was wanting to replicate myself or have this sense of reincarnation. For me having children was and continues to be a good lesson in impermanence. Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
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07-11-2012, 09:49 AM	#20
beonecenry Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 492 Senior Member	Just as there are traces of the tree/chair/ash so our traces pass from one birth to the next. "I" am never reborn only the traces of "I". When "I" am reborn the "I" is not the same, it is different, just as the tree/chair/ash are different, yet it is still "me" just as it is still the tree/chair/ash. I'm puzzled so forgive me for asking a question here. When the tree is turned into a chair and the chair is burnt to create ash, there is a continuation of the carbon and nitrogen and whatever else is in there. At extremes, these may convert into energy and then back into something else but there is still continuation of a sort. That sounds fine. But how does that map onto the self? In this case (the self) we're talking about something which is non-material so I'm struggling to see how the analogy works because there's nothing to convert into anything else. My body might feed the flowers and the rocks and the bugs (as that great line from Munch has it: "From my rotting body, flowers shall grow and I am in them and that is eternity. ") but I just can't see how any 'self' gets in on the act. Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
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