[Pelefaifs]

Friends,
I am challenging some of my own ideas, and would like your feedback.

The Buddha says in the Pali Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta:

"Now this, monks, is the Noble Truth of dukkha: Birth is dukkha, aging is dukkha, death is dukkha; sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, & despair are dukkha; association with the unbeloved is dukkha; separation from the loved is dukkha; not getting what is wanted is dukkha. In short, the five clinging-aggregates are dukkha."

— SN 56.11

My continued impression is that this 'life' or this 'world' is simply dukkha (dissatisfying/formed from suffering). Is this your view or is there a better view or way to understand this?

Secondly, even if one were to end suffering (as per the 4 Noble Truths), this does not end dukkha for other beings, correct? They still go on to suffer? So the world is still dukkha even for those in Nibbana.

Metta

[tyclislavaify]

Two quick answers:

Life is not inherently suffering. Suffering is a mental manifestation due to attachment. Therefore suffering is experienced by one's own mind.

Since suffering is experienced by your own mind, cessation of suffering (nibbana) does not depend on factors of the outside world.

[inhitoemits]

as i understand suffering will always be in the world as long humans dont stop sinfull acts. the enlighten who can go to nibbana will look at the word of human as a place full of karma and you can say humans living in mud and filthy thoughts.

this is my understanding of your question.

the thinker

[Adamdjeffe]

Thanks for your valued input, Deshy. That makes sense to me now I read it. Are we then re-training our mind to overcome suffering?

[wbeachcomber]

as i understand suffering will always be in the world as long humans dont stop sinfull acts. the enlighten who can go to nibbana will look at the word of human as a place full of karma and you can say humans living in mud and filthy thoughts.

this is my understanding of your question.

the thinker

Thanks, The Thinker. You echo my own perception and concern. Even if we overcome dukkha other beings will be caught in samsara and dealing with karma. So is dukkha the underlying reality of this world? It seems so.

The only way out is to assume that the arahant (one who has ended suffering) has in fact ended the perception of others suffering. Hence the end of suffering as the underlying reality of the world? This has philosophical issues in my opinion, but I wonder aloud.

[economex]

i think we as humans have to cultivate example Buddhism to end our own suffering and i am not sure if we can directly help other to get rid of their karma except for telling them the dhamma. Buddha put the road to nibbana infront of us but we have to walk the path for us self.

the thinker

[art_fan_12]

Are we then re-training our mind to overcome suffering?

Developing detachment. That does not include attempting to save the world imo.

[Vemnagelignc]

Hi Deshy, The Thinker
I think the problem with my question/view is that I am taking the "world" to be a single stable phenomena (such as the earth on which we stand) and that (I have literally just read) seems to not be 100% correct. Rather the world for us changes along with our karma and our mind of course. This implies that the world might cease to be suffering for one who has ended suffering for her or his self (or her or his world):

"The "world" of which the Buddha speaks is comprised in this aggregate of body-and-mind. For it is only by the activity of our physical and mental sense faculties that a world can be experienced and known at all. The sights, sounds, smells, tastes and bodily impressions which we perceive, and our various mental functions, conscious and unconscious — this is the world in which we live. And this world of ours has its origin in that very aggregate of physical and mental processes that produces the kammic act of craving for the six physical and mental sense objects." - Nyanaponika Thera

Perhaps either of you have an opinion on this?

[GypeFeeshyTes]

My opinion about that is

When you become enlighten everything around you can look different, depending on what way you want to see it. of course a enlighten one can see the world just like you and me, but if he or she wants they can see it as it really are. without the human distractions

the thinker

[TorryJens]

I think the problem with my question/view is that I am taking the "world" to be a single stable phenomena (such as the earth on which we stand) and that (I have literally just read) seems to not be 100% correct. Rather the world for us changes along with our karma and our mind of course. This implies that the world might cease to be suffering for one who has ended suffering for her or his self (or her or his world):

What in the world are you talking about Oliver? Lol, this forum has got really amusing.

[HaroldMY]

As far as you ending your suffering, and the rest of the world (Not sure if this is what you meant, or where your heading?):

There will always be humans, due to procreation.

There will always be procreation, due to the rational want for a continued existence of our species. (Who doesn't want that?)

Because there will always be humans, because the population will grow/continue to exist, because the world is full of so much diversity, there will always be suffering. Until we incorporate buddhist teachings and values into our society, teach them to our children, from a young age.

The world is not suffering, the world is Nirvana. Our perceptions, views, attachments, etc, is the suffering.

[bQXHsKzS]

lol, I like the pun, Deshy!
The term "world" isn't a fixed phenomena in Buddha speak, it seems. The planet earth is pretty solid but it seems we create our personal world through the mind in the present moment.

For example, when I am hungry the world seems to be full or empty of food depending on where I go. When I stop being hungry the world of food vanishes for that time (I may see a fruit, but it no longer appeals to me as it did at lunch time when I was craving food). Sometimes after eating a lot, I feel aversion at the food which I earlier craved. The "world" changes, perception remains pretty much the same, but my desires and aversion change the way I perceive the "world".

SN 12.44 Loka Sutta: The World
The Blessed One said: "And what is the origination of the world? Dependent on the eye & forms there arises eye-consciousness. The meeting of the three is contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. This is the origination of the world. What da ya reckon, I am still out of this world?

This is a basic example, subject to change, but we can use our imagination to imagine how the world would look if we had no craving/aversion/ignorance or sufffering. Suddenly my world would not be full of things I need or don't like, it would be full of objects of no specific value. The world then changes.

What actually changes is our karma, in the present moment. Because what was once important to us, ceases to be so, and hence suffering changes and so too our renewed karma from that moment onwards.

What do you think?

[new-nickname-zanovo]

The world is not suffering, the world is Nirvana. Our perceptions, views, attachments, etc, is the suffering.

I like that! Thanks Bodhisvasti for all the input.

[RonPeeredob]

Hello Oliver,

I think the world is merely a mirror of your inner self If you are full of suffering, then you will see it so, if you are happy and postive, then you will be able to see beautiful. However, the world is inherently meaningless/empty

[iodigmaFemZem]

Doesn't that inherent meaningless/emptiness itself cause sorrow and suffering, Bundokji?

[D6b2v1HA]

Doesn't that inherent meaningless/emptiness itself cause sorrow and suffering, Bundokji?
Nope, its our search for meaning that causes sorrow and suffering.

[PristisoliTer]

Nope, its our search for meaning that causes sorrow and suffering.

Very true.

[aspinswramymn]

"Now this, monks, is the Noble Truth of dukkha: Birth is dukkha, aging is dukkha, death is dukkha; sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, & despair are dukkha; association with the unbeloved is dukkha; separation from the loved is dukkha; not getting what is wanted is dukkha. In short, the five clinging-aggregates are dukkha."

— SN 56.11

hi

it is important to examine the structure of words & theory with logic & appropriate intelligence

for example, the 4NTs teach the cause of suffering is desire for sensual pleasures, desire to be & desire not to be. these desires do not cause aging, illness & death, for example, nor do they cause birth, unless one overtly desires to have children. but this desire does not cause one's own birth

the very logic that your personal desire is not the cause of your personal life shows the 1st noble truth is not related to 'life' being suffering because the cause of the 1st noble truth is the 2nd noble truth

***

further, what does the phrase 'five clinging-aggregates' mean? the body is an aggregate. can it cling? painful feeling is an aggregate? can it cling? what exactly is clinging? obviously clinging is when you are in love with a man or woman and they leave you and you cry out: "Please do not go, I love you, you are mine!"

***

so the actually teaching is, as chanted in the monasteries by monks who are in training: "In short, clinging to the five aggregates is dukkha". Or "the five aggregates clung to is dukkha".

***

That being the case, if desire is not the cause of physical birth, sickness, aging & death, how are these things related to suffering?

The answer is these are events that are commonly involved with suffering, but it is the clinging to these events that generates suffering.

Example:

"I cannot handle life at the moment; why was I born; I wish i was not born".

"When I gave birth to my child, that was the most pain & suffering I ever experienced in my life".

"I was just diagnosed with a sickness; I am getting old; I might die; I am so scared; I will miss my loved ones. I feel so scared & depressed. Why is life so cruel to me? I do not want to die. I am too young to be sick & die."

***

if we can realise the reality of the examples above, then with ordinary comprehension & logic, we understand the Buddha taught:

"In short, clinging to the five aggregates is dukkha". "In short" means this is the entire teaching about suffering.

Birth, aging, illness, death, separation, association, etc, are only suffering when there is clinging to these natural & inevitable events.

Why was I born, I am sick, I am getting old, I am going to die, my loved one died, I am so sad, I am in pain, I am separated from what I love, I am associated with what I do not love, I want something and I cannot get it.

All of this dukkha. i.e., the unease, burden, unrest, spinning & torment of the mind, is the grasping, clinging & attachment itself.

Good luck

[occallExtet]

Nope, its our search for meaning that causes sorrow and suffering.

Not true, IMO. I hope you already have a meaning? Mine is to be as happy as possible, to make my loved ones as happy as possible, and to leave as great an impact upon the world as is possible.

[hojutok]

Not true, IMO. I hope you already have a meaning? Mine is to be as happy as possible, to make my loved ones as happy as possible, and to leave as great an impact upon the world as is possible.

What if you fail in your objectives, is that Dukkha?

What if you achieve your objectives, is that still Dukkha?

What if your loved ones or the world don't appreciate your efforts, is that Dukkha?

What if your circumstances change or you realise you need to modify your objectives is that Dukkha?

When we give meaning to that which is impermanent, unsatisfactory, and not self it's a bit precarious, there is a tension there, because we are trying to appreciate it in terms of what it could be rather than what is.

We can still work towards your objectives with less Dukkha by appreciating the process, what is here and now, more than the goals or the meaning we assign to them.

To me a large cause of Dukkha is the idea that "there must be more to life than this", realising that this is not the case and there is actually less, and it's the ideas and expectations we add to life that contribute to cause Dukkha is a huge relief.