[sandyphoebetvmaa]

As i understand the teaching of the Buddha, the supernatural power that can be gained from the right way of practise is something we will get as long we dont get attachment to it, if we still have attachments we cant get supernatural powers of serious matter. But when we cultivate Buddhism we will understand how and why we get some supernatural powers. and i do belief we can use them as long we dont show off to others. at that moment we can risk lose all we gained from our practise.

Regards from The thinker

[Dweplyododo]

Its not a case of does it need it it has it. Thats the appeal otherwise whats the point of following the path.supernatural is just a word. Is dark energy or other dimensions supernatural.only till its proven.If there was no escape from samsara and no extension to mind buddha would have told everbody categorically there is no life afterdeath.Why beat around the bush!!!!!!!

[oxixernibioge]

Nibbana is the unconditioned element (asankhata dhamma). although experienced by mind (nama), Nibbana is not a mental phemomena (nama dhamma), just a tree experienced by mind is not a mental phemomena (nama dhamma) but a physical phenomena (rupa dhamma)

Nibbana is not something metaphysic because it is neither mental (nama) nor physical (rupa)

regards

Hi Element,

As I've quoted before, the nikayas state that Nibbana is where "conditioned consciousness ceases to exist" and of course "Unborn, Undying, Unbecoming, etc."

THAT there, to me, is supernatural, or that is "above the natural or physical plane/dimension."

I do not believe that the Pali Nikayas make the Buddha out to be a nihilist. No proof of nihilism, hence rebirth.
If Nibbana is nothing other than "a changed mind" then suicide would "change the mind" also.
By my deduction, this is the logical conclusion of your statement.

Thank you,
Stefos

[praboobolbode]

Its not a case of does it need it it has it. Thats the appeal otherwise whats the point of following the path.supernatural is just a word. Is dark energy or other dimensions supernatural.only till its proven.If there was no escape from samsara and no extension to mind buddha would have told everbody categorically there is no life afterdeath.Why beat around the bush!!!!!!!

We know it has it, but I don't think that means it's unreasonable to ask does it need it. My car has a stereo for example, but it doesn't need it.

[orgagsUpsepsy]

As I've quoted before, the nikayas state that Nibbana is where "conditioned consciousness ceases to exist" and of course "Unborn, Undying, Unbecoming, etc."

THAT there, to me, is supernatural, or that is "above the natural or physical plane/dimension."

I don't see why that should be labelled supernatural, if conditioned consciousness ceases then you're left with unconditioned consciousness, extraordinary yes, supernatural no.

[Desflahd]

As I've quoted before, the nikayas state that Nibbana is where "conditioned consciousness ceases to exist" and of course "Unborn, Undying, Unbecoming, etc."

yes, where mind & consciousness are no longer conditioned by greed, hatred, attachment & delusion, this is Nibbana, the unborn (where the 'self' thought is not born), as quoted below:

One neither fabricates nor mentally fashions for the sake of becoming or un-becoming. This being the case, one does not cling to anything in the world. Not clinging, one is not agitated. Unagitated, one is totally unbound (Nibbana) right within. One discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'

He has been stilled where the currents of construing do not flow. And when the currents of construing do not flow, he is said to be a sage at peace.' Thus was it said. With reference to what was it said? 'I am' is a construing. 'I am this' is a construing. 'I shall be' is a construing. 'I shall not be' is a construing. Construing is a disease, construing is a cancer, construing is an arrow. By going beyond all construing, he is said to be a sage at peace.

A sage at peace is not born, does not age, does not die, is unagitated, and is free from longing. He has nothing whereby he would be born. Not being born, will he age? Not aging, will he die? Not dying, will he be agitated? Not being agitated, for what will he long? It was in reference to this that it was said, 'He has been stilled where the currents of construing do not flow. And when the currents of construing do not flow, he is said to be a sage at peace.'

MN 140

[Sironimoll]

Very interesting passage mn140 this is saying a consciousness remains a pure bright pearl perhaps.slightly off subject sorry!

[isopsmypovA]

Very interesting passage mn140...

passage or mere sentence? reading beyond the mere sentence to read the entire passage...

There remains only consciousness: pure & bright. What does one cognize with that consciousness? One cognizes 'pleasure.' One cognizes 'pain.' One cognizes 'neither pleasure nor pain.' With the cessation of that very sensory contact [cognition] — the feeling that has arisen in dependence on the sensory contact — ceases, is stilled. With the break-up of the body, after the termination of life, all that is sensed [cognized], not being relished, will grow cold right here.

mn 140 this, in the Itivuttaka, is called Nibbana without residue or fuel

And what is the Nibbana element with no fuel remaining? There is the case where a monk is an arahant whose fermentations have ended, who has reached fulfillment, finished the task, laid down the burden, attained the true goal, ended the fetter of becoming, and is released through right gnosis. For him, all that is sensed, being unrelished, will grow cold right here.

Itivuttaka

[Jackson]

I think when the question about supernatural powers was asked the thread starter meant more like, healing powers, ability to fly and things like that., that is considered supernatural powers

correct me if i am wrong

[Abaronos]

Your right element but i was reading more than the one sentence it payed off you came up with some more brilliant passages.The

passage or mere sentence? reading beyond the mere sentence to read the entire passage...


this, in the Itivuttaka, is called Nibbana without residue or fuel

[larentont]

The last one you gave really indicates the snuffing of the candle so to speak.I apologise for getting off the subject again!!!

[CHEAPSOFTOEMONLINE]

...A quiet mind is all you need.
All else will happen rightly, once your mind is quiet.
As the sun on rising makes the world active, so does self-awareness affect changes in the mind.
In the light of calm and steady self-awareness inner energies wake up and work miracles without effort on your part.
Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj

This conveys the position of Advaita Vedanta, but what about that of the Buddha Dharma? In Buddhism, supernatural miracles are largely dispensed with.

[Eagevawax]

The last one you gave really indicates the snuffing of the candle so to speak.I apologise for getting off the subject again!!!

the last is just a translation, where buddha, for the arahant, compares 'feelings' to a flame. 'feelings' here are not the same as the fires of craving & defilement. thus, it is important to not get caught up in the translations of 'fuel' and 'residue', because these are not refering to craving

buddha taught two kinds of Nibbana of the arahant: (1) with fuel, i.e., feelings; and (2) without fuel, i.e., growing completely cold

the 2nd Nibbana is like a meditation on death, where buddha said: "all that is experienced, not being delighted in, will grow cold"

but each time these teachings are interpreted as 'rebirth', they are not being practised. each occasion of entertaining the notion of 'rebirth' is an occasion of craving & delight, leading to mental becoming

kind regards

[FallJimerks]

This conveys the position of Advaita Vedanta, but what about that of the Buddha Dharma? In Buddhism, supernatural miracles are largely dispensed with.

There are many examples of the Siddhis used by the Buddha, and conveyed upon his followers by attainment of spiritual understandings. How can you say they are dispensed with ?

[GlarlraTpople]

Thanks for that extra piece of information very interesting.regards (#35)

[EbrsaRynleot]

Thanks for that extra piece of information very interesting.regards (#35)

i am glad you followed the dhamma transmission. when dhamma is discussed, insight can occur

[bestworkothlo]

There are many examples of the Siddhis used by the Buddha, and conveyed upon his followers by attainment of spiritual understandings. How can you say they are dispensed with ?

hi Gus

could you kindly support your opinion with some references. i personally cannot recall reports in scriptures (rather than stories & fables) of Buddha using Siddhis to convey spiritual understandings. generally, in the scriptures, Buddha used Siddhis to approach & guide those with spiritual potential but, generally, the followers of the Buddha attained their own understanding thru their own practise of the Buddha's teachings

however, i am certainly interested in reading an actual account that is an exception to the general case

regards

Then the Blessed One willed a feat of psychic power such that Angulimala, though running with all his might, could not catch up with the Blessed One walking at normal pace. Then the thought occurred to Angulimala: "Isn't it amazing! Isn't it astounding! In the past I've chased & seized even a swift-running elephant, a swift-running horse, a swift-running chariot, a swift-running deer. But now, even though I'm running with all my might, I can't catch up with this contemplative walking at normal pace." So he stopped and called out to the Blessed One, "Stop, contemplative! Stop!"

"I have stopped, Angulimala. You stop."

****
Then Ven. Angulimala, dwelling alone, secluded, heedful, ardent & resolute, in no long time reached & remained in the supreme goal of the holy life for which clansmen rightly go forth from home into homelessness, knowing & realizing it for himself in the here & now. He knew: "Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for the sake of this world." And thus Ven. Angulimala became another one of the arahants.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit....086.than.html as Ven. Sona was meditating in seclusion, this train of thought arose in his awareness: "What if I were to disavow the training, return to the lower life, enjoy wealth, & make merit?"

Then the Blessed One, as soon as he perceived with his awareness the train of thought in Ven. Sona's awareness — as a strong man might stretch out his bent arm or bend his outstretched arm — disappeared from Vulture Peak Mountain, appeared in the Cool Wood right in front of Ven. Sona, and sat down on a prepared seat.

***

So after that, Ven. Sona determined the right pitch for his persistence, attuned the pitch of the [five] faculties [to that], and there picked up his theme. Dwelling alone, secluded, heedful, ardent & resolute, he in no long time reached & remained in the supreme goal of the holy life for which clansmen rightly go forth from home into homelessness, knowing & realizing it for himself in the here & now. He knew: "Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for the sake of this world." And thus Ven. Sona became another one of the arahants.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit....055.than.html

[fmrcurter]

There are many examples of the Siddhis used by the Buddha, and conveyed upon his followers by attainment of spiritual understandings. How can you say they are dispensed with ?

The siddhis aren't important to the Buddha's teachings.

Kevatta Sutta (DN 11)

A third time, the Blessed One said to Kevatta the householder, "Kevatta, I don't teach the monks in this way: 'Come, monks, display a miracle of psychic power to the lay people clad in white.'"

...

"Seeing this drawback to the miracle of psychic power, Kevatta, I feel horrified, humiliated, and disgusted with the miracle of psychic power."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit...11.0.than.html

[Riprincattiva]

hi Gus

could you kindly support your opinion with some references. i personally cannot recall reports in scriptures (rather than stories & fables) of Buddha using Siddhis to convey spiritual understandings. generally, in the scriptures, Buddha used Siddhis to approach & guide those with spiritual potential but, generally, the followers of the Buddha attained their own understanding thru their own practise of the Buddha's teachings

regards

element, how delightful that you not only repeat what i said, in a form which you could understand, but you also provided the very examples for which you asked~!

this pertains to another insight which i have had, that we rarely see anyone except ourselves, and we see ourselves in everyone~ best wishes, Gus

[Uciaucrx]

There are many examples of the Siddhis used by the Buddha, and conveyed upon his followers by attainment of spiritual understandings. How can you say they are dispensed with ?

Abhaya, let me admit to an unfavorable choice of words. For "conveyed", let me substitute "attained". As for the quote that the Buddha felt: "horrified, humiliated, and disgusted with the miracle of psychic power.", it is specifically in the context of using them to gain converts, and not generally, in the sense that he never used them himself, as element so ably demonstrated.

The foundation of my assertions is this: that the Buddha consistently admonished and encouraged those who are seeking enlightenment to refer to his teachings as a guide, and not a rule, nor a chariot.

"My teaching is not a philosophy. It is the result of direct experience...
My teaching is a means of practice, not something to hold onto or worship.
My teaching is like a raft used to cross the river.
Only a fool would carry the raft around after he had already reached the other shore of liberation."

http://www.viewonbuddhism.org/dharma.html

~ Gus