[skydaypat]

This seemed like an interesting little article (I will batten down the hatches)

http://meaningness.wordpress.com/201...ts-meditation/

I hope this has not been posted previously (if it has apologies and please disregard)

[TritteTouff]

I had no idea who the author David Chapman was ...and then found this:

"Approaching Aro - my experience with an unusual Tibetan Buddhist lineage"

http://approachingaro.org/about-the-author


and also his website "Buddhism for Vampires":


http://buddhism-for-vampires.com/

[kmjbbT3U]

Thank you for that Aloka-D.
I am not sure that it should effect ones judgement of the article. As the veracity of that should be judged on its own merits.

However it is worth noting that posting the picture appears to me like trying to discredit it before it's read! (removing it would be eminently decent)

If I am being unfair you have my unreserved apologies.



"And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech."

[Nupbeaupeteew]

I just Looked at the Aro article more closely.....I have to add that I have nothing to do with this 'lineage' nor have I ever. However they do seem to have some very learned and skilled practitioners regardless of anything else.
Sorry I am seeming to be obtuse but there are 'lineage' 'Terma' 'Tulka' and other issues that I will not/cannot comment on (I hope I have stayed within the rules here)

[AdvertisingPo]

Thank you for that Aloka-D.
I am not sure that it should effect ones judgement of the article. As the veracity of that should be judged on its own merits.

However it is worth noting that posting the picture appears to me like trying to discredit it before it's read! (removing it would be eminently decent)

If I am being unfair you have my unreserved apologies.

I'm entitled to investigate authors of material posted on the website because this is a Buddhist learning community - and for you to post a quote about "right speech" is absolutely ridiculous ! where is my divisive speech which you underlined in your quote #3 ?

[Kneeniasy]

I did not question your entitlement....not that I am aware nor that I can see in my post.
In my opinion you were trying to influence peoples judgement on an article regarding Dharma. This is in my opinion not only a little sneaky (which is not entirely honest) but also divisive.

If I have misjudged your motivation I apologise unreservedly (as I did previously)
Surely one would be better allaying my suspicions by explaining your motivation. If it was not to discredit the article or the author or adversely affect forums members credulity then off course you have my sincere apologies!!!

[EmpokemyMok]

I did not question your entitlement....not that I am aware nor that I can see in my post.
In my opinion you were trying to influence peoples judgement on an article regarding Dharma. This is in my opinion not only a little sneaky (which is not entirely honest) but also divisive.

If I have misjudged your motivation I apologise unreservedly (as I did previously)
Surely one would be better allaying my suspicions by explaining your motivation. If it was not to discredit the article or the author or adversely affect forums members credulity then off course you have my sincere apologies!!!

Giving some links to an unfamiliar authors websites is hardly 'divisive' or 'sneaky' - they're there on the internet for all to see.

I suggest you now refrain from any more of these personal attacks on me, thanks.


.

[Suentiend]

Where did that 10 foot pole go lol

With Metta

[pedFlicle]

Giving some links to an unfamiliar authors websites is hardly 'divisive' or 'sneaky' - they're there on the internet for all to see. I entirely agree, the links to the author are there....it is the motivation behind posting the picture I questioned.

I suggest you now refrain from any more of these personal attacks on me, thanks. I am disappointed that you see my questioning of your action and motivation as an attack. I can assure you it was not intended.

However non of this palaver clarifies whether I am in fact correct or incorrect in my interpretation of your posts.

[bestcigsnick]

it is the motivation behind posting the picture I questioned.

The picture was under the title "Buddhism for Vampires" !

This conversation between us is now ended.

[ssupermegatone]

Thank you for clarifying

[Centurnion]

personally, i am not sure what the controversy is?

Theravada, which itself is an idiosyncratic sect/cult, did reinvent meditation

the various systems of Theravada meditation, starting with Buddhaghosa's explanation of Anapanasati in his Visuddhimagga, to the modern techniques of Mahasi, Goenka, the Thai "Buddho", etc, are not related to what Buddha taught

they can be useful introductory methods. they are wholesome. but they are reinventions

kind regards



buddha taught meditation as follows:

And what is the faculty of concentration? There is the case where a monk, a noble disciple, making it his object to let go (vossaga), attains concentration, attains singleness of mind.

SN 48.10 A monk develops mindfulness as a factor for awakening - dependent on seclusion, dependent on dispassion, dependent on cessation that results in relinquishment (vosagga).

MN 118

[cafeviahe]

Vampires aside reading through the article I can't really fault his history.

Like Element I don't really have a problem with the term "reinvent", though I think "revive" is probably more correct.

The suttas don't really contain a meditation technique as far as I can see, rather guiding principles upon which meditation techniques could be based and more importantly principles upon which wisdom can be cultivated through day to day activities.

I don't think he has provided evidence justifying either of these two headlines;

Asian Theravada repeatedly reinvented meditation under the influence of Western ideas.

Theravada meditation was reinvented by guys who were into extreme asceticism. For the first one yes Anagarika Dhammapala was influenced by the west in that his movement was primarily to counter British colonialism by reviving Buddhism, I just don't see any link with Burmese Vipassana or Thai Dhutanga. I don't see any western influence until Vipassana came to the West.

For the second the Thai forest tradition encouraged the practice of Dhutangas which are optional practices in the Vinaya and so part of the middle way rather than extreme asceticism. I don't think it is really anywhere near the asceticism of the Jains (for example) and even in Ajahn Muns time I think was considered optional or as a limited number of practices for a limited period of time for monks only.

So a useful historical overview but if there is a point he's trying to make I'm not convinced he's made it.

[TopcigsCOM]

i was never particularly ever a fan of Buddhadasa's Handbook for Mankind but now i see what he was ranting on about:

INSlGHT, BY THE NATURE METHOD vs INSIGHT, BY ORGANIZED TRAINING

***

[feqlmwtuqx]

I am honestly not at all conversant with Buddhadasa..........I will have to look at this.

[LongaDonga]

The suttas don't really contain a meditation technique as far as I can see, rather guiding principles upon which meditation techniques could be based and more importantly principles upon which wisdom can be cultivated through day to day activities.

Hi Goofaholix,

Having followed Buddhadasa Bhikkhu technique for Anapanasati I decided to return again to just the instructions given in the Anapanasati Sutta. I feel more comfortable and the experience feels a lot more natural. I think Gotama Buddha left very instructive suttas all along the Nikayas.

Why you think the suttas do not really contain meditation techniques?

[teewHettive]

Why you think the suttas do not really contain meditation techniques?

If we were to take it as a meditation technique rather than general guiding principles upon meditation techniques can be based for a start we'd need a shady tree in the wilderness. Of course modern meditation teachers of techniques are pragmatic about this.

Then there is no indication how one knows the breath, is it by feeling it? imagining it? noting it? labelling it? just figuring well I'm not dead so must be breathing? how do you calm bodily fabrication? how do you be sensitive to rapture?

If you feel it do you do so at the nostrils or abdomen or the whole body? when sensitive to the entire body does that mean sensitive the the breath in the body or all bodily sensations whethyer or not breath realated?

How long is it supposed to take? Do you just breath once short and once long and go on to the next step?

How do you deal with pain? how do you deal with discursive thought? how long should you sit there?

I know I'm being overly pendantic but I'm just trying to demonstrate how you will have filled in the gaps based on what you've learned from teachers of modern meditation techniques. I don't think a total beginner reading this sutta is going to know exactly what to do wheras I'm sure an experienced meditator going back to the sutta can find confirmation of the principles they have gleaned from learned techniques that have worked for them.

[Soresbox]

Then there is no indication how one knows the breath, is it by feeling it? imagining it? noting it? labelling it?

by ignoring it. it is the same as playing 'hard to get' by ignoring a man or woman you are keen on. by play hard to get, they come to you. the Tao Te Ching states a woman lures a man by lying low in stillness. meditation is the same, which is why the Tao used such a apt metaphor

when we need to see a sight or hear a sound, do we use a technique to facilitate that seeing or hearing? or does the seeing or hearing occur automatically?

buddha taught relinquishment of craving. that is all that was required to be explained

regards

[djmassk]

Thanks Goofaholix,

I will speak using the experience gotten with Zazen before shifting to Anapanasati.

A question has arise from your last post: Do you think that it is not enough to practice directly from the Anapanasati sutta?

Then there is no indication how one knows the breath, is it by feeling it? imagining it? noting it? labelling it? just figuring well I'm not dead so must be breathing? how do you calm bodily fabrication? how do you be sensitive to rapture?

Another question. If Anapanasati do not make any kind of emphasis about this, don't you think it is because it is not needed at all?

The first tetrad tell us just to be in the presence of breath, long, short, in, out, and after a while calm happens.

If you feel it do you do so at the nostrils or abdomen or the whole body? when sensitive to the entire body does that mean sensitive the the breath in the body or all bodily sensations whether or not breath realated?

How long is it supposed to take? Do you just breath once short and once long and go on to the next step? Anapanasati only tells to be there, with the breathing.

How do you deal with pain? I have not experienced pain.

how do you deal with discursive thought? Watching it, letting it go.

how long should you sit there? Time is not really relevant, but an hour is OK. It depends. Again, I think time is not relevant as it is not indicated in the Sutta.

What is relevant is the process that develops and unfolds as one sits regularly. Time depends on the unfolding, not the unfolding on time.

I don't think a total beginner reading this sutta is going to know exactly what to do As for Anapanasati I can be considered a total beginner. When obsessed with so many things around this technique, meditation was not working. When returning to the sutta as the basic guideline, results appeared again.

But maybe I am a kind of an atypical practitioner due to my circumstances

[Hdzcxqoi]

I will speak using the experience gotten with Zazen before shifting to Anapanasati.

That's my point.