[Opinion_counts]

I recently realised since coming here that my entire basis on my belief from rebirth came from Thich Nhat Hanhs' understanding of it. From what I understand he doesn't really believe, or teach Rebirth, so much as Continuation. This to me makes plenty of more sense to me then the idea of the transference of a persons conciousness. It is, to me, the most logical and scientific conclusion that can be concluded using the mind, deep looking. Everything that makes the personality is explained more so by his environment, genetics, thoughts, speech, and actions, more so then the transference of past Karma. This is what he had to say at the end of a summer session...

http://www.mindfulnessbell.org/articles/karma1.php

If you were born into Saudi Arabia, under parents who were both predominantly shy, the likelihood of you being a shy muslim is very high. Today scientists and psychologists pretty much agree with what makes the person, the person they are today, is the environment and surroundings they grew up in, the influences in their lives, and anything inborn from there genetics.

Where does conciousness transference come into play here? What is the point of it, when it has very little, if any, of a true effect, when under the critiscism of modern science/psychology? (This is the main question)

The only possible evidence for concioussness transference, or anything at all transferring after death, is past life memories. But even those are easily explained by what could be a very Buddhist way of looking/thinking. Everything is connected, perhaps even our minds on some level. Perhaps a whole system of minds, a database throughout the world, like an internet, a world conciousness.

From what I have seen, most people who remember past lives, remember people from their own culture/background, probably because it is easier for them to process. An asian is most likely to remember an asian past life, as with a european or an african. Perhaps sub conciousnesses of the world mind?

I honestly just can't grasp the traditional idea of rebirth, and not because I have not 'practiced' buddhism as long as many others, but because I have learned everything I know from a mixture all Buddhist traditions, and from modern day science/psychology. There is just no way for me to think in such a way. Perhaps when the Buddha spoke of his past lives, he meant that everything is 'one', past and present, the elements that make up our bodies, that let the 'mind' be possible, are returned to the Universe once we die. So, I was the King of a small country, with many beautiful wives, and worshipped by the people for my Grandeur and splendidness!!!

[55Beaphable]

I think you gave the answer to your own question in what you was writing here

You say you have mixed all kinds of Buddhism over the years you been a Buddhist. that is in it self a answer i feel to make sense of Buddhism you have to follow one path, and one Buddha. As i understand the teaching if you mix teachings or take away teachings it can be really difficult to get the answers you looking for

With kindness from The thinker

[Haibundadam]

I recently realised since coming here that my entire basis on my belief from rebirth came from Thich Nhat Hanhs' understanding of it. From what I understand he doesn't really believe, or teach Rebirth, so much as Continuation. This to me makes plenty of more sense to me then the idea of the transference of a persons conciousness.

Hello Bodhivasti, an interesting post. I hope its O.k to ask you a few questions? I understand what you mean by a continuation in relation to the 5 skandhas, pañcaskandha or pungpo nga. I am not sure what you mean by consciousness?

It is, to me, the most logical and scientific conclusion that can be concluded using the mind, deep looking. Everything that makes the personality is explained more so by his environment, genetics, thoughts, speech, and actions, more so then the transference of past Karma. I think your adherence to logic and 'scientific' enquiry is laudable. Are you aware that logic has many different models? Ways of thinking if you like. Are you also aware that scientific models are also subject to change, revision and negation by other scientific models? So we have different scientific ways of seeing if you like. How do we choose which logic or which science to apply?
What do you mean by deep looking?
Do you think that environment, genetics, thought, speech etc are free from Karma?

Where does conciousness transference come into play here? What is the point of it, when it has very little, if any, of a true effect, when under the critiscism of modern science/psychology? (This is the main question) As I am uncertain of what you mean by consciousness I can not really answer this or comment on its affects. However if we have established that there are multiple scientific and psychological approaches (views) and these are often at odds. How then do we surmise that 'consciousness transference, has little if any true effect?

The only possible evidence for concioussness transference, or anything at all transferring after death, is past life memories. But even those are easily explained by what could be a very Buddhist way of looking/thinking. Everything is connected, perhaps even our minds on some level. Perhaps a whole system of minds, a database throughout the world, like an internet, a world conciousness. "The only possible evidence" is a huge statement when we consider the multifarious scientific, psychological, logical and Buddhist approaches to any line of enquiry which could uncover all sorts of other evidence.
A universal database is an interesting idea (have you heard of the collective unconscious) However how would a world consciousness function? would there be a transference of consciousness between the individual and the collective? would the world consciousness be a eternal?

I honestly just can't grasp the traditional idea of rebirth, and not because I have not 'practiced' buddhism as long as many others, but because I have learned everything I know from a mixture all Buddhist traditions, and from modern day science/psychology. If you have not done something how would you know how it would affect you?
There have been so many Buddhist traditions I would be surprised if any individual has even had a cursory glance at all of them. Many of the traditions differ not only in emphasis but also on application of method.
I suppose the root of my questions is how do you know that your version of logic, science, psychology and 'deep looking' are the most efficacious when you are not aware of and neither have you applied the other alternatives?

Thank You

[qQVXpYM6]

"I suppose the root of my questions is how do you know that your version of logic, science, psychology and 'deep looking' are the most efficacious when you are not aware of and neither have you applied the other alternatives?"

But I am more then aware of the many styles and traditions regarding Rebirth, though the rediculous ones I toss aside right away, like I did with things such as Mormonism and the cargo cult, at the time I had done all of my religious and spiritual inquiries. None make sense, except for that of Thich Nhat Hanh and the Pali Canon. And it isn't my version, it is the collective version of all scientists and Psychologists. Deep looking is looking at something from all angles to see the reality of said thing.

Literal Rebirth: Pointless. Has no substantial effect on you. I don't remember my past lives, so what did I learn? Where am I advancing to? I can become 99 percent a Buddha, and then be reborn into another body, and start right back from 0 percent? That doesn't make sense. The majority of people who remember past lives, remember those from their own background and ethnicity, a European will remember a European past life, an Asian will remember an Asian past life, what's up with that? And many traditions have many different ideas as to 'what' is reborn. What do you think is reborn?

I think we are reborn all the time, Thich Nhat Hanh taught me that, and Element showed me that by using the Pali Canon. We are reborn into thousands, probably millions, of different states of minds throughout our whole lifetime. The goal is to stop being reborn, by practicing Buddhism.

The early Buddhist texts make it clear that there is no permanent consciousness that moves from life to life. So if that is true, why even bother with it, unless you need to console yourself on the concept of death, of the you that is here and now, no longer existing.

[gusunsuth]

Hi, and many thanks for you answer.

"And it isn't my version, it is the collective version of all scientists and Psychologists." I hope you take this in the way it is offered....the above quote makes no sense because there is no collective version of science or Psychology!!

There are many different sciences and many different psychologies!

many if not most are in absolute disagreement about how we and the universe act and interact!

All the stuff about literal rebirth and reincarnation has no meaning for me friend as both make no sense to me! They are concepts that cannot fit into my Buddhism.

Would you like to have more effective deep looking?


Thank You

[avavavava]

The collective is what those scientists and psychologists agree on. There is alot they agree with eachother on, and compared to what they agree with eachother on, to Literal Rebirth, it just doesn't make sense.

Sure. I would love more effective deep looking...

What is your idea of Rebirth, sir?

And what evidence do you have that it has effected you, outside of what scientists and psychologists agree upon as far as what makes you, you? I.E. Your enviroment/society, genetics/biology, thoughts, speech, and actions.

[illilmicy]

Hi Bodhivasti,
I think what you mean is a mean average of, or a sort of consensus popular science and psychology. Sorry it doesn't really exist. It would make things so much easier if it did! But trust me it does not, all scientific disciplines have massive fundamental disagreements.
When we come to psychology its just as bad. It is rife with division and dissension. I have no reason to make this up, do I?
Could you give me a detailed example of how you 'deep look?
What is your idea of Rebirth, sir? I have no idea of rebirth.
As I have no idea of it how can it have affected me? I have no idea of snip guzzling lesser fandangoed goose muffling dragons either and they have as much affect....

Thank You

[avaissema]

Why are you replying to this post if you have no idea on rebirth, or anything to add to the idea of Thich Nhat Hanhs Continuation? This thread was about 'Continuation', not science and psychology.

There is alot of fundamental things they agree on. You are focusing on what they disagree on, which is not what is being used as far as my decision making.

I have read alot of your posts, and honestly, I find no reason to discuss this with you.

............Your Welcome?

[JoesBro]

Bodhivasti,

although your thread title includes rebirth, and Thay as far as I remember talks of continuation not rebirth or in fact reincarnation. In fact Thay has been quite clear regarding this that he considers it to be 'continuation' not rebirth.
Continuation is what the thread is about you state.. This thread was about 'Continuation', not science and psychology. So why did you say... It is, to me, the most logical and scientific conclusion Or am I misquoting or making this up?
There is alot of fundamental things they agree on. You are focusing on what they disagree on, which is not what is being used as far as my decision making. Why would it even matter if as you say this is about continuation and not science and psychology?
How do you know what you are focusing on in your decision making as you don't know what your focus is from line to line on your posts?
I have read alot of your posts, and honestly, I find no reason to discuss this with you Sorry friend I was trying to help you with some really simple, basic, ways of looking at issues from an intelligent balanced perspective. A slightly more effective 'deep looking' however I can see that this may not be possible at this time.
Good luck with it all.

[ViktorialHDY]

You were insulting, and condescending, and still are in your last post. I have noticed it in your other posts. Who are you to assume I need help in how I see things? I have no time to waste on this.

"Would you like to have more effective deep looking?


Thank You"

Really?

"Sorry friend I was trying to help you with some really simple, basic, ways of looking at issues from an intelligent balanced perspective."

I won't be getting that from you. You have no help to offer me.


Can someone please just erase this thread?

[Peter Hill]

Please try to be kind to each other, guys, and focus on friendly, patient discussion rather than heated arguments.

Thanks,

Aloka

[Anaedilla]

You may find I have been nothing but polite.
In the face of ridiculous statements about fantasy powers...deep looking...studying all the traditions of Buddhism.... a knowledge of science...a knowledge of psychology.

come on mate you must see how daft all that is?

Give it up and have a go at meditation it will do you much more good that grasping at ideas and concepts that seem on the evidence to be frankly beyond your intellectual prowess at this time.

I don't think I do have anything to offer you.

Can someone please just erase this thread? stamp stamp......slams the door

I wish you much good luck

[kasandrasikl]

Right. You have been nothing but polite. Thank you for showing the real you, the one I saw in the first place after reading your other posts.

You really have no idea what I have said.