[nryFBa9i]

Same thread as posted by myself on another Forum here: http://www.dhammawheel dot com/viewt...p?f=16&t=12758

Firstly, read the bottom, the conditions of this particular thread, before replying, or don't reply at all, please. Thank you in advance.

Aggregates/Skhandas http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

What makes us human beings is the Five Skhandas, correct? Form, feeling, perception, fabrication, conciousness.

Form is the physical make up of you, your body. Why is it that every time I read about the five aggregates, form is mentioned first? Form would include the brain, of which today scientists and psychologists generally agree, 'generates' or 'allows' the mind, or if you prefer, 'allows the latter four aggregates'.

Take away the body, form, and the latter four aggregates cannot exist. Take away the brain, and the latter four aggregates cannot exist. When the man with a sick mind goes to a Therapist, gets medicine that affects the brain, typically his mind is healed and/or helped. Correct me if i'm wrong.




Annata/Not-Self http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .nymo.html


"Is consciousness permanent or impermanent?" — "Impermanent, venerable sir." — "Now is what is impermanent pleasant or painful?" — "Painful, venerable sir." — "Now is what is impermanent, what is painful since subject to change, fit to be regarded thus: 'This is mine, this is I, this is my self'"? — "No, venerable sir."

"Bhikkhus, when a noble follower who has heard (the truth) sees thus, he finds estrangement in form, he finds estrangement in feeling, he finds estrangement in perception, he finds estrangement in determinations, he finds estrangement in consciousness."

"When he finds estrangement, passion fades out. With the fading of passion, he is liberated. When liberated, there is knowledge that he is liberated. He understands: 'Birth is exhausted, the holy life has been lived out, what can be done is done, of this there is no more beyond.'"




Rebirth http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

""This contemplative Gotama — the leader of a community, the leader of a group, the teacher of a group, honored and famous, esteemed as holy by the mass of people — describes a disciple who has died and passed on in terms of places of rebirth: "That one is reborn there; that one is reborn there." But when the disciple is an ultimate person, a foremost person, attained to the foremost attainment, Gotama the contemplative does not describe him, when he has died and passed on, in terms of places of rebirth: "That one is reborn there; that one is reborn there." Instead, he describes him thus: "He has cut through craving, severed the fetter, and by rightly breaking through conceit has made an end of suffering & stress."'

"Vaccha, when a flame is being swept on by the wind and goes a far distance, I designate it as wind-sustained, for the wind is its sustenance at that time."

"Vaccha, when a being sets this body aside and is not yet reborn in another body, I designate it as craving-sustained, for craving is its sustenance at that time."




From the Kalama Sutta - "Of course you are uncertain, Kalamas. Of course you are in doubt. When there are reasons for doubt, uncertainty is born. So in this case, Kalamas, don't go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by agreement through pondering views, by probability, or by the thought, 'This contemplative is our teacher.' When you know for yourselves that, 'These qualities are unskillful; these qualities are blameworthy; these qualities are criticized by the wise; these qualities, when adopted & carried out, lead to harm & to suffering' — then you should abandon them.




What aggregate would craving be considered?

If it is considered an aggregate, what of Impermanence?

If many are to be reborn into the Human realm, what of the lack and/or growth of bodies, and the sustained lack/need thereof, say should something cataclysmic happen to earth, such as a global killer, and the factual biology of the process of procreation, and the now many more humans in the 'human realm'?

Why isn't other-worldy species that are bound to exist taken into account for literal Rebirth? It is fact that we are one of the youngest galaxies out there.

When literal rebirth has no real effect on a human once they begin to age as a child, and take their shape of mind from their environment and own thoughts, where does conciousness transference come into play? Is it not ignorance that holds us back from Nibanna?

What of medicine that targets the brain, of the human body, specifically, that helps the mind?

It is unlikely to assume we are the only sentient beings/species out there, as we are for a fact, one of the youngest galaxies. How would rebirth play into this on a universal aspect?

"When you know for yourselves that..." "...these qualities, when adopted & carried out, lead to harm & to suffering' — then you should abandon them."

We know that people have commited suicide/harm (Drugs, Dangerous Activities, War (Samurai are a prime example), etc), under the assumption of literal Rebirth, that the future can be neglected by the ignorant, under the belief of literal Rebirth, we know that the followers of the Buddha can be harmed in their practice, by the idea of Literal Rebirth. Metaphorical Rebirth is the same thing, without the transference of conciousness, but cannot be considered harmful or suffering because it makes Rebirth for the practitioner both more a mindfulness of his/her practice/Self, and more mindful of his/her affect on society on a whole.

Does this not make metaphorical Rebirth better for ones practice?





In conclusion, what the entire point of this post has been, an inquiry/challenge to the idea of literal rebirth. The challenge, answering the last questions, those at the end of this, and 'all of them'. Sort of like a Q&A. I am not here to debate, persay, but put forth the evidence that I personally have against it, and to see what those who believe in literal birth have to say to 'all of it', IE, the questions at the end.

Rules of The Inquiry/Challenge (And remember, it is your choice to take it up, noone is forcing you to reply):

All questions at the end must be answered.

No posts such as, "This has nothing to do with the end of your suffering", or the like. The buddha only taught suffering, and the cessation of thus. This is an inquiry/challenge, just accept it, or don't respond. You are not being forced to answer this.

Just one post, of your explanation, to all questions at the end, this is not a debate, persay. Just an inquiry/explanation to the problems of literal Rebirth, answered by you.



Other then that, if you can't answer every question, or be mature in your reply, just have fun as you read the posts and viewpoints of everyone else.

Personally, that is how I have always learned when it comes to philosophy/spirituality. I study various teachings, and absorb them into my understanding/beliefs, or change them when something new is learned, or corrected without a doubt. I think it's called Osmosis or the like.

[Depolit]

Hi Bodhisvasti,

My opinion is that this thread is too long to get a response from most of the people who post at BWB, especially when you've said :

Firstly, read the bottom, the conditions of this particular thread, before replying

and

All questions at the end must be answered......

I'm also not entirely sure why there's a need to post an identical topic here to one you've just posted at DW and have given a link to.


kind regards

Aloka

[Elisabetxxx]

What makes us human beings is the Five Skhandas, correct? Form, feeling, perception, fabrication, conciousness.

yes

see here: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit....048.than.html

here: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit....079.than.html

here: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit....010.bodh.html

Form is the physical make up of you, your body. Why is it that every time I read about the five aggregates, form is mentioned first? Form would include the brain, of which today scientists and psychologists generally agree, 'generates' or 'allows' the mind, or if you prefer, 'allows the latter four aggregates'.

yes

see here: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit....067.than.html

Take away the body, form, and the latter four aggregates cannot exist. Take away the brain, and the latter four aggregates cannot exist. When the man with a sick mind goes to a Therapist, gets medicine that affects the brain, typically his mind is healed and/or helped. Correct me if i'm wrong.

sounds reasonable

[Luisabens]

"Vaccha, when a flame is being swept on by the wind and goes a far distance, I designate it as wind-sustained, for the wind is its sustenance at that time."

"Vaccha, when a being sets this body aside and is not yet reborn in another body, I designate it as craving-sustained, for craving is its sustenance at that time."

Vaccha was a befuddled wanderer who the buddha rarely spoke dhamma directly to. keep in mind it was Vaccha who created the metaphor about the flame & wind and not buddha. buddha replied the wind sustains the flame being swept rather than the flame itself. wind cannot sustain flame. there must also be physical matter (twig; leaf; etc) to sustain the flame.

also, the buddha was not refering to the physical body. the Pali word is 'kaya', meaning 'group' or 'collection' or 'body' of aggregates.

when you enjoy eating ice-cream, the five aggregates are a certain way. there is a certain 'collection' of aggregates related to enjoying & eating ice-cream. then when you stop eating ice-cream, that collection of aggregates is set aside. but the mental tendency to enjoy & eat ice-cream remains, which is "craving sustained".

[Veveseinlep]

What aggregate would craving be considered?

sankhara (mental formations)

If it is considered an aggregate, what of Impermanence? not an aggregate

If many are to be reborn into the Human realm, what of the lack and/or growth of bodies, and the sustained lack/need thereof, say should something cataclysmic happen to earth, such as a global killer, and the factual biology of the process of procreation, and the now many more humans in the 'human realm'? superstitious question. the 'human realm' refers to a humane mental state rather than a human physical body. in Pali, the word for human is 'manassa', which literally means 'high minded'

Why isn't other-worldy species that are bound to exist taken into account for literal Rebirth? It is fact that we are one of the youngest galaxies out there.

When literal rebirth has no real effect on a human once they begin to age as a child, and take their shape of mind from their environment and own thoughts, where does conciousness transference come into play?

Is it not ignorance that holds us back from Nibanna? yes

What of medicine that targets the brain, of the human body, specifically, that helps the mind? many things demonstrate mental emotions are related to the physical body. sexual puberty is an excellent example. before puberty, for most, sexual thoughts are rare. but after puberty, sexual thoughts are common

We know that people have commited suicide/harm (Drugs, Dangerous Activities, War (Samurai are a prime example), etc), under the assumption of literal Rebirth, yes, the Bhagavad Gita is a good example. but belief in rebirth can also prevent suicide

Does this not make metaphorical Rebirth better for ones practice? rebirth is a moral teaching about karma (action) and its results, specifically spoken for puthujjana

when practising for Nibbana, the rebirth teachings are irrelevent: see http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit....117.than.html

In conclusion, what the entire point of this post has been, an inquiry/challenge to the idea of literal rebirth. rebirth was taught by the Buddha, as a moral teaching about karma (action) and its results, specifically for puthujjana. it is an appropriate teaching for puthujjana thus to challenge it is unnecessary and inappropriate. it is only necessary & appropriate to challenge when the higher teachings, such as the 4NTs and Dependent Origination, are misinterpretated as 'rebirth', which is most common in buddhism

No posts such as, "This has nothing to do with the end of your suffering", or the like. the above teaching was made in a certain context, specifically in reference to what the buddha uniquely taught, i.e., buddha's own & original teachings. but buddha also taught rebirth, like the other religions of his day, but buddha never declared rebirth teachings to be 'his', i.e., what 'he' taught

regards

[vicgirl]

buddha did not declare rebirth was "his" teaching

And what have I taught? 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress': This is what I have taught.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit....031.than.html But this Dhamma taught by me is unrefuted, undefiled, blameless, not faulted by knowledgeable brahmans & contemplatives. And which Dhamma taught by me is unrefuted, undefiled, blameless, not faulted by knowledgeable brahmans & contemplatives?

'There are these six properties' is a Dhamma taught by me that is unrefuted, undefiled, blameless, not faulted by knowledgeable brahmans & contemplatives.

'There are these six media of sensory contact' is a Dhamma taught by me that is unrefuted, undefiled, blameless, not faulted by knowledgeable brahmans & contemplatives.

'There are these eighteen explorations for the mind' is a Dhamma taught by me that is unrefuted, undefiled, blameless, not faulted by knowledgeable brahmans & contemplatives.

'There are these four noble truths' is a Dhamma taught by me that is unrefuted, undefiled, blameless, not faulted by knowledgeable brahmans & contemplatives.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit....061.than.html ...discourses that are words of the Tathagata — deep, deep in their meaning, transcendent, connected with emptiness

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit....007.than.html ****

[vansVoish]

It's okay. I figured out the teaching taught by the Buddha on Rebirth. This is what I had wrote in the other forum after having read a link sent to me.



"Thank you, Mike. I decided to not be lazy and read through the links you gave me. There are no past lives, the Buddha must have used it as a tool to teach the uneducated, or those who could not comprehend truly, no-self. And because we are all one, I suppose he was right to say that he was all of those past lives. Because I am that, and that is me.


This essentially says that you are not born into another realm, physically. But your conciousness can become unto like an animal, a Ghost, an Asura, etc. He must have meant it all as a mindset, a state of being.

I was just trying to understand the Rebirth that is told to so many people, the one similar to an Afterlife. Where you go from body to body, life to life.



Bhikkhus! So it is that dependent on ignorance, volitional activities arise; dependent on volitional activity, Consciousness arises; dependent on Conscious ness, mind-and-body (namarupa) arises; dependent on namarupa, the six sense-bases arise; dependent on the six sense-bases, Contact arises; dependent on Contact, Sensation arises; dependent on Sensation, Craving arises; dependent on Craving, Clinging11 arises; dependent on Clinging, bhava (kamma actions, causing further existence) arises; dependent on bhava, REBIRTH arises; dependent on REBIRTH, there arise ageing, death, grief, lamentation, pain, distress and despair. In this way occurs the arising of this entire mass of dukkha.'13"

[chuecafressds]

Oh. Wow. Element strikes again, lol. Thank you!

[dodadaxia]

So then. Did the Buddha believe in the actual life to life Rebirth? As in, when I die, something goes on to another host infant-body?

[opdirorg]

Bhikkhus! So it is that dependent on ignorance, volitional activities arise; dependent on volitional activity, Consciousness arises; dependent on Conscious ness, mind-and-body (namarupa) arises; dependent on namarupa, the six sense-bases arise; dependent on the six sense-bases, Contact arises; dependent on Contact, Sensation arises; dependent on Sensation, Craving arises; dependent on Craving, Clinging11 arises; dependent on Clinging, bhava (kamma actions, causing further existence) arises; dependent on bhava, REBIRTH arises; dependent on REBIRTH, there arise ageing, death, grief, lamentation, pain, distress and despair. In this way occurs the arising of this entire mass of dukkha.'"

the Pali word above is 'jati', which means 'birth' rather than 'rebirth'

'jati' is an Indian word that means social or self identity



Jāti (in Devanagari: जाति Tamil:சாதி) (the word literally means 'thus born') is the term used to denote the thousands of clans, tribes, communities and sub-communities in India. It is a term used across religions. Each jāti typically has an association with a traditional job function or tribe, although religious beliefs (e.g. Sri Vaishnavism or Veera Shaivism) or linguistic groupings may define some jatis. A person's surname typically reflects a community (jati) association: thus Gandhi = perfume seller, Dhobi = washerman, Srivastava = military scribe, etc. In any given location in India 500 or more jatis may co-exist, although the exact composition will differ from district to district.

Wikipedia Now this word jati has many meanings. For in the passage 'he recollects one birth, two births, etc', it is becoming. In the passage 'Visakha, there is a kind (jati) of ascetics called Niganthas (Jains)', it is monastic order. In the passage 'birth is includes in two aggregates', it is whatever is formed. In the passage 'his birth is due to the first consciousness in the mother's womb' (Vin.i,93), it is rebirth-linking. In the passage 'as soon as he was born (sampatijata), the Bodhisattva' (M.iii,123) it is parturition [childbirth]. In the passage 'one who is not rejected and despised on the account of birth', it is clan. In the passage 'sister, since i was born with noble birth', it is the Noble One's virtue.

Visuddhimagga Men are farmers by their acts;
And by their acts are craftsmen too.
Men are merchants by their acts;
And by their acts are servants too.

Men are robbers by their acts;
And by their acts are soldiers too.
Men are chaplains by their acts;
And by their acts are rulers too.

So that is how the truly wise
See action how it really is,

Seers in Dependent Origination
Skilled in actions and results.

MN 98 These five aggregates subject to clinging are the self-identification described by the Blessed One. The craving that makes for new becoming — accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now here & now there — i.e., craving for sensual pleasure, craving to be, craving not to be: This, friend Visakha, is the origination of self-identification described by the Blessed One.

This, monks, is the path of practice leading to self-identification. One assumes about the eye that 'This is me, this is my self, this is what I am.' One assumes about forms... One assumes about consciousness at the eye... One assumes about contact at the eye... One assumes about feeling... One assumes about craving that 'This is me, this is my self, this is what I am.'

MN 44 ***

[QzVyZbTg]

So then. Did the Buddha believe in the actual life to life Rebirth? As in, when I die, something goes on to another host infant-body?

non-sequitur

in all sutta about rebirth, it refers to actions & results. due to karma (action) with attachment, the mind takes birth again in an ego state having to deal with the results (consequences) of those actions, even if they are 'good' actions

whether the results of actions arise discernibly in this life or speculatively in another life is non-sequitur given 'taking birth again' is a reality when actions are performed with ignorance, attachment & self identity

kind regards

[U2DnBGFE]

That clears up so much for me. You have no idea. It's what I 'assumed it had to be' as well. Something to do purely with the mind. Thank you for clearing that up.

And yes, I agree, there are many supposed Monks out there that teach it, simply for that reason. Kinda like the Dalai Lama 'soothing the minds' of all the rich folk who have now suddenly become in touch with everything. Who now 'see the light' and wish to help to relieve the suffering of all beings, like Steven Segal. Lol. Yet they still live like Gods.

[Kingerix]

Same thread as posted by myself on another Forum here:

the following sutta is not difficult to comprehend properly:

"Who, O Lord, consumes the nutriment consciousness?"

"The question is not correct," said the Exalted One. "I do not say that 'he consumes.' If I had said so, then the question 'Who consumes?' would be appropriate. But since I did not speak thus, the correct way to ask the question will be: 'For what is the nutriment consciousness (the condition)?' And to that the correct reply is: 'The nutriment consciousness is a condition for the future arising of again existence (punabbhavā); when that has come into being, there is (also) the sixfold sense-base; and conditioned by the sixfold sense-base is sense-impression.'"

"Who, O Lord, has a sense-impression?"

"The question is not correct," said the Exalted One.

"I do not say that 'he has a sense-impression.' Had I said so, then the question 'Who has a sense-impression?' would be appropriate. But since I did not speak thus, the correct way to ask the question will be 'What is the condition of sense-impression?' And to that the correct reply is: 'The sixfold sense-base is a condition of sense-impression, and sense-impression is the condition of feeling.'"

"Who, O Lord, feels?"

"The question is not correct," said the Exalted One. "I do not say that 'he feels.' Had I said so, then the question 'Who feels?' would be appropriate. But since I did not speak thus, the correct way to ask the question will be 'What is the condition of feeling?' And to that the correct reply is: 'sense-impression is the condition of feeling; and feeling is the condition of craving.'"

"Who, O Lord, craves?"

"The question is not correct," said the Exalted One. "I do not say that 'he craves.' Had I said so, then the question 'Who craves?' would be appropriate. But since I did not speak thus, the correct way to ask the question will be 'What is the condition of craving?' And to that the correct reply is: 'Feeling is the condition of craving, and craving is the condition of clinging.'"

"Who, O Lord, clings?"

"The question is not correct," said the Exalted One, "I do not say that 'he clings.' Had I said so, then the question 'Who clings?' would be appropriate. But since I did not speak thus, the correct way to ask the question will be 'What is the condition of clinging?' And to that the correct reply is: 'Craving is the condition of clinging; and clinging is the condition of the process of becoming.' Such is the origin of this entire mass of suffering.

Phagguna Sutta

[MP+4]

Yes, that is alot easier to comprehend.

And that monk was lost, I believe, in the superstition. He never did reply to what I had mentioned about...

Why is there a big trend on past life memories being of that same persons race/background/society?

Or...

Why is there not a little white girl chanting the mantras of old? Why is the black boy from South Africa not trying to wear the robes of the Bikkhus?

[mp3 free]

The nutriment consciousness is a condition for the future arising of again existence (punabbhavā); when that has come into being, there is (also) the sixfold sense-base; and conditioned by the sixfold sense-base is sense-impression.

Phagguna Sutta for the superstitious puthujjana, the above excerpt is about "rebirth"

however, in reality, this is about 'becoming'. 'becoming' is when the mind becomes something in terms of self-identification, such as becoming a husband, becoming a wife, becoming a lawyer, becoming a doctor, becoming rich, becoming poor, becoming happy, becoming sad, becoming angry, becoming a 'buddhist', etc

the sutta below unambiguously demonstrates becoming occurs due to delight, now here, now there

for example, if now, the mind reads this post and thinks: "I believe this", "I disagree with this", "I am confused by this", etc, these are 'becomings'



Becoming
"Friend, how many kinds of becoming are there?"

"Friend, there are these three kinds of becoming: sensual becoming, form becoming, formless becoming."

"And how is further becoming in the future brought about?"

"The delight, now here, now there, of beings hindered by ignorance & fettered by craving: That's how further becoming in the future is brought about."

"And how is further becoming in the future not brought about?"

"Through the fading of ignorance, the arising of clear knowing, & the cessation of craving: That's how further becoming in the future is not brought about."

MN 43

[steansathtpos]

Do they typically translate 'further becoming' with rebirth? Like, life to life, body to body?

[triardwonvada]

The afterlife, rebirth (body to body), would come into play there. Noone truly knows, and we can only ever really speculate. I don't think the Buddha ever really taught or preached something that we could not discover on our own.

[EnubreBense]

Do they typically translate 'further becoming' with rebirth? Like, life to life, body to body?

yes, typically

bhava (becoming) is a mental state or mental phenomena. it is an asava (effluent). it is not related to the physical body

He discerns that 'Whatever disturbances that would exist based on the effluent of sensuality... the effluent of becoming... the effluent of ignorance, are not present. And there is only this modicum of disturbance: that connected with the six sensory spheres, dependent on this very body with life as its condition.' He discerns that 'This mode of perception is empty of the effluent of sensuality... becoming... ignorance. And there is just this non-emptiness: that connected with the six sensory spheres, dependent on this very body with life as its condition.' Thus he regards it as empty of whatever is not there. Whatever remains, he discerns as present: 'There is this.' And so this, his entry into emptiness, accords with actuality, is undistorted in meaning, pure — superior & unsurpassed.

MN 121

[zawhmqswly]

I dub thee, Element, my Pali Guru... Henceforth, ye shall be known as... The Pali Man! Lol. Jk.

But on a serious note. Have you, yourself noticed that in all of the 'past life recollections', the asian will remember an asian, the european, a european, the african, a african, so on and so forth?

[AlbrtJhnsqw]

The afterlife, rebirth (body to body), would come into play there. Noone truly knows, and we can only ever really speculate. I don't think the Buddha ever really taught or preached something that we could not discover on our own.

i think with the appropriate meditative insight, the mind can know there is no rebirth afterlife