[Cigarsstoreonline]

Monotheistic religions like Judaism, Christianity and Islam see God as having inherent existence. The un-caused cause.

Would Buddhists see the universe as having inherent existence? And if not, why?

Hands Palm to Palm,
Rhysman

[piramirra]

I see this as irrelevant to Buddhism. However I think the Universe may be as you've just described but I have no way of knowing for sure. This is a question for science not Buddhism.

[mv37afnr]

Would Buddhists see the universe as having inherent existence? And if not, why?

No, for three reasons: anatta, paticca samuppada + idapaccayata, and sunnata.

1. Anatta (non-self)

Alagaddupama Sutta (MN 22)

"Monks, where a Self or what belongs to Self are not pinned down as a truth or reality, then the view-position — 'This cosmos is the self. After death this I will be constant, permanent, eternal, not subject to change. I will stay just like that for an eternity' — Isn't it utterly & completely a fool's teaching?"

"What else could it be, lord? It's utterly & completely a fool's teaching."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit....022.than.html On countless occasions, the Buddha spoke the words "sabbe dhamma anatta" (all things are without self). One's sense of self does not exist apart from phenomenal experience. Thus, the anatta doctrine is a rejection of the noumena so highly esteemed by the Brahmins of the Buddha's time. Anatta is a phenomenological method of re-examining what we refer to as self. In reference to all phenomena, the Buddha said "netam mama, neso ham asmi, na meso atta" (this is not me, this is not mine, this is not my self). This does not imply that there is something beyond phenomena that can be rightly said to be one's True Self. A True Self neither exists within nor apart from phenomena. Nothing exists inherently, in its own right. This includes the universe.

2. Paticca samuppada (dependent origination) + idapaccayata (this-that conditionality)

In the discourses, the Buddha described two interrelated causal principles: dependent origination and this-that conditionality. Dependent origination is a 12-link chain that explains the origin of dukkha (unsatisfactoriness). This-that conditionality is a broader way to explain how the arising of one thing depends on the arising of another, and how the cessation of one thing depends on the cessation of another.

Paticca-samuppada-vibhanga Sutta (SN 12.2)

"And what is dependent co-arising? From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit....002.than.html Paccaya Sutta (SN 12.20)

"Now what is dependent co-arising? From birth as a requisite condition comes aging & death. Whether or not there is the arising of Tathagatas, this property stands — this regularity of the Dhamma, this orderliness of the Dhamma, this this/that conditionality. The Tathagata directly awakens to that, breaks through to that. Directly awakening & breaking through to that, he declares it, teaches it, describes it, sets it forth. He reveals it, explains it, makes it plain, & says, 'Look.' From birth as a requisite condition comes aging & death.

"From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth...

"From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming...

"From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance...

"From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving...

"From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling...

"From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact...

"From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media...

"From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form...

"From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness...

"From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. Whether or not there is the arising of Tathagatas, this property stands — this regularity of the Dhamma, this orderliness of the Dhamma, this this/that conditionality."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit....020.than.html Assutava Sutta (SN 12.61)

"'When this is, that is.

"'From the arising of this comes the arising of that.

"'When this isn't, that isn't.

"'From the cessation of this comes the cessation of that."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit....061.than.html Ayacana Sutta (SN 6.1)

"For a generation delighting in attachment, excited by attachment, enjoying attachment, this/that conditionality and dependent co-arising are hard to see."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit....001.than.html Due to the dependent, conditional nature of these causal relations, nothing can exist by itself. As nothing exists without dependence on causes and condition, nothing can be said to exist inherently. The universe, which is without a self-nature and without inherent existence, cannot exist apart from causes and conditions.

3. Sunnata (emptiness)

Suñña Sutta (SN 35.85)

Then Ven. Ananda went to the Blessed One and on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One, "It is said that the world is empty, the world is empty, lord. In what respect is it said that the world is empty?"

"Insofar as it is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self: Thus it is said, Ananda, that the world is empty."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit....085.than.html As with anatta (non-self), according to the notion of sunnata (emptiness), there is nothing that can be said to be in any way solid and self-existent. All things depend on other things. Therefore, all things are said to be empty of self. The universe, as a phenomenal occurrence, is likewise empty of self. It does not, and cannot, exist inherently.



Abhaya

[poekfpojoibien]

No again, for the reasons previously outlined, and also because if you posit God as the cause then it solves nothing as you still have something who's cause is not explained.

[iodillalm]

[...]

"So, Malunkyaputta, remember what is undeclared by me as undeclared, and what is declared by me as declared.

And what is undeclared by me?

'The cosmos is eternal,' is undeclared by me. 'The cosmos is not eternal,' is undeclared by me. 'The cosmos is finite'... 'The cosmos is infinite'... 'The soul & the body are the same'... 'The soul is one thing and the body another'... 'After death a Tathagata exists'... 'After death a Tathagata does not exist'... 'After death a Tathagata both exists & does not exist'... 'After death a Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist,' is undeclared by me.

"And why are they undeclared by me?

Because they are not connected with the goal, are not fundamental to the holy life. They do not lead to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, calming, direct knowledge, self-awakening, Unbinding. That's why they are undeclared by me.

"And what is declared by me?

'This is stress,' is declared by me. 'This is the origination of stress,' is declared by me. 'This is the cessation of stress,' is declared by me. 'This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress,' is declared by me.

And why are they declared by me?

Because they are connected with the goal, are fundamental to the holy life. They lead to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, calming, direct knowledge, self-awakening, Unbinding.

That's why they are declared by me.

[...]

Cula-Malunkyovada Sutta

[HcMkOKiz]

Would Buddhists see the universe as having inherent existence?

No, it has no inherent existence. Nobody is up there.

And if not, why? I think Abhaya has explained it very well.

[xanaxist]

I guess I would agree that the universe is essentially empty but I don't know if that's exactly what's being asked by the OP here.

[FliveGell]

I guess I would agree that the universe is essentially empty but I don't know if that's exactly what's being asked by the OP here.

Seems like Rhysman is asking for an un-caused cause similar to a god. The answer from science is no. The answer from the Pali Suttas --quoted by Abhaya- is no.

But lets see if Rhysman comes with more comments.

[Bymnbypeten]

Thanks everyone, I really did not think the universe had inherent existence, I just wanted to confirm the concept.

One thing I'm sure of, I want to be just like Abhaya!

[popillio]

Would Buddhists see the universe as having inherent existence?

yes, some would

imo, the universe is something subject to continual change & transformation of the various elements. thus, imo, the universe as a changing thing has an inherent existence, just like the reality of impermanence & conditionality has inherent existence. the natural creator is change (anicca) itself; conditionality (iddapaccayatta) itself

however, i agree with Trilaksana, that the existence of the universe is irrelevant to Buddhism, given it has no relevance to the creation & cessation of suffering

i recently read a buddhist book called 'The Magic of the Mind', where the writer erroneously asserted buddha taught about the creation of 'things'. the monotheistic are similar, with most of their followers stuck on the creation of the universe or 'things' rather than the creation of suffering

if we carefully study the monotheistic books, the original emphasis was on the creation of misfortune from bad karma & the personification of the law of karma. but buddhism goes beyond this because the good karma of the monotheistics (or nontheistics) does not end suffering



Whether or not there is the arising of Tathagatas, this property stands — this regularity of the Dhamma, this orderliness of the Dhamma, this this/that conditionality (iddapaccayatta).

Paccaya Sutta Monks, whether or not there is the arising of Tathagatas, this property stands — this steadfastness of the Dhamma, this orderliness of the Dhamma: All processes are inconstant.

Whether or not there is the arising of Tathagatas, this property stands — this steadfastness of the Dhamma, this orderliness of the Dhamma: All processes are unsatisfactory.

Whether or not there is the arising of Tathagatas, this property stands — this steadfastness of the Dhamma, this orderliness of the Dhamma: All phenomena are not-self.

The Discourse on the Orderliness of the Dhamma

[Roker]

yes, some would

imo, the universe is something subject to continual change & transformation of the various elements. thus, imo, the universe as a changing thing has an inherent existence, just like the reality of impermanence & conditionality has inherent existence. the natural creator is change (anicca) itself; conditionality (iddapaccayatta) itself

The above is a bit confusing to me.

Nagarjuna's Seventy Stanzas: 2 - 4

"All phenomena must have either self-existence or non-self-existence. There is no phenomenon which is other than these two, nor are there any expressions which do not come under these two categories. All phenomena which are the subject of this treatise are similar to nirvana because all phenomena are devoid of inherent existence.

What is the reason for this? It is because the inherent existence of all phenomena is not to be found in causes, conditions, aggregations or individualities. Thus all phenomena are devoid of inherent existence and are empty.

Some assert that a result already exists inherently in the nature of its cause; but then it cannot arise because it already exists. Others assert that a result exists inherently but not in the nature of its cause; so it cannot arise because it is not in the nature of its cause. Yet others assert that a result both does and does not exist inherently in its cause; ; but then they are asserting contradictory views about an object because an object cannot simultaneously both exist and not exist. Because phenomena do not arise inherently so also they do not endure or cease inherently."

IMO, the above logic precludes any form of inherent existence. It really does not matter if you believe that Nagarjuna really received this from the Nagas and that it was a true lost teaching of the Buddha. The logic still stands.

Hands Palm to Palm,
Rhysman

[DoctorTDent]

Excellent points, Rhysman.

Besides anatta (non-self), anything subject to dukkha (unsatisfactoriness) and anicca (transitivity) cannot exist inherently. Nagarjuna used the term svabhava (self-nature, own-being) to connote that which has inherent existence. He then thoroughly dissected this notion of svabhava and blew it to smithereens.

[zzarratusstra]

Nagarjuna's Seventy Stanzas: 2 - 4

"All phenomena must have either self-existence or non-self-existence.

yes, the universe has non-self existence. the universe is not a self but it exists

All phenomena which are the subject of this treatise are similar to nirvana because all phenomena are devoid of inherent existence.

all phenomena are not similar to nirvana. nirvana is the unconditioned. it is the uncaused. nirvana inherently exists. it is independent

What is the reason for this? It is because the inherent existence of all phenomena is not to be found in causes, conditions, aggregations or individualities. Thus all phenomena are devoid of inherent existence and are empty."

Nirvana has inherent existence but is empty. although nirvana inherently exists, it is not a 'self'. it is not-self (anatta). it is empty of self (sunnata). the logic of Nagarjuna sounds questionable, in appearing to assert a synonomity between 'existence' and 'self'.

****

if we look down from above, upon the swirling mass that is the universe, it can be seen to exist. although there are no conditioned things in that universe that have inherent existence, the swirling mass itself swirls, moves & changes ceaselessly

buddha taught nirvana inherently exists, because it is the uncaused. buddha taught the reality of conditionality (causes & effect), impermanence and unsatisfactoriness in regards to conditioned things inherently exists or "stands". buddha taught the non-selfhood of all things, including Nirvana, inherently exists or "stands"

if "not-self" did not inherently exist, then how could all things be not-self? this simple statement refutes the logic of Nagarjuna



Whether or not there is the arising of Tathagatas, this property stands — this regularity of the Dhamma, this orderliness of the Dhamma, this this/that conditionality (iddapaccayatta).

Paccaya Sutta Monks, whether or not there is the arising of Tathagatas, this property stands — this steadfastness of the Dhamma, this orderliness of the Dhamma: All processes are inconstant.

Whether or not there is the arising of Tathagatas, this property stands — this steadfastness of the Dhamma, this orderliness of the Dhamma: All processes are unsatisfactory.

Whether or not there is the arising of Tathagatas, this property stands — this steadfastness of the Dhamma, this orderliness of the Dhamma: All phenomena are not-self.

The Discourse on the Orderliness of the Dhamma

[avaiptutt]

yes, the universe has non-self existence. the universe is not a self but it exists


all phenomena are not similar to nirvana. nirvana is the unconditioned. it is the uncaused. nirvana inherently exists. it is independent




Nirvana has inherent existence but is empty. although nirvana inherently exists, it is not a 'self'. it is not-self (anatta). it is empty of self (sunnata). the logic of Nagarjuna sounds questionable, in appearing to assert a synonomity between 'existence' and 'self'.

****

if we look down from above, upon the swirling mass that is the universe, it can be seen to exist. although there are no conditioned things in that universe that have inherent existence, the swirling mass itself swirls, moves & changes ceaselessly

buddha taught nirvana inherently exists, because it is causeless. buddha taught the reality of conditionality (causes & effect), impermanence and unsatisfactoriness in regards to conditioned things inherently exists or "stands". buddha taught the non-selfhood of all things, including Nirvana, inherently exists or "stands"

Hi Element,
Please give a reference the the statement that the Buddha taught that nirvana inherently exists.

[doxinwasido]

Please give a reference the the statement that the Buddha taught that nirvana inherently exists.

i already quoted it:

here is, bhikkhus, a not-born, a not-brought-to-being, a not-made, a not-conditioned.

Nibbana Sutta There are, Ananda, these two elements: the conditioned element and the unconditioned element. When he knows and sees these two elements, a monk can be called skilled in the elements.

MN 115

[mas-dkt-sive]

Besides anatta (non-self), anything subject to dukkha (unsatisfactoriness) and anicca (transitivity) cannot exist inherently. Nagarjuna used the term svabhava (self-nature, own-being) to connote that which has inherent existence. He then thoroughly dissected this notion of svabhava and blew it to smithereens.

sure, anything subject to dukkha (unsatisfactoriness) and anicca (transitivity) cannot exist inherently. but does this apply to Nirvana? does it apply to dukkha & anicca themselves? in other words, is not anicca is not anicca? is not dukkha not anicca?

or what about the 4NTs? surely the buddha did not use the term "truth" loosely; without merit. where ever suffering (mental torment) exists, it must be dependent on ignorance & craving. it cannot be otherwise. this suffering will always cease when ignorance & craving cease. it cannot be otherwise. thus, imo, the 4NTs are svabhava

imo, the universe or nature (i.e., dhamma) is svabhava. nirvana is svabhava. anicca, dukkha & iddapaccayata are svabhava. "truth" or the nature of reality is svabhava

[AdobeCreativeSuite]

Nagarjuna thoroughly dissected this notion of svabhava and blew it to smithereens.

what about this?

Your question should not be phrased in this way: Where do these four great elements — the earth property, the liquid property, the fire property and the wind property — cease without remainder? Instead, it should be phrased like this:

Where do water, earth, fire & wind
have no footing?

DN 11 here, buddha seems to avoid (keep silent on) the question of whether the four great elements are svabhava or not svabhava

if the four great elements could cease without remainder then they would certainly be not svabhava

instead, buddha redefines the question to accord with freedom from suffering

kind regards

[avodeinst]

Would Buddhists see the universe as having inherent existence? And if not, why?

the universe isn't a solipsistic illusion ...

[grinaJanoDant]

I think Element and I are interpreting "inherent existence" differently than most of the other forumers who have posted.

[DaleJrGirl]

the universe isn't a solipsistic illusion ...

Solipsism ( /ˈsɒlɨpsɪzəm/) is the philosophical idea that only one's own mind is sure to exist. The term comes from the Latin solus (alone) and ipse (self). Solipsism as an epistemological position holds that knowledge of anything outside one's own mind is unsure. then what about this?

And I further proclaim, friend, that it is in this fathom-long body with its perceptions and thoughts that there is the world, the origin of the world, the cessation of the world, and the path leading to the cessation of the world.

AN 4:45 and this:

The Blessed One said: "And what is the origination of the world? Dependent on the eye & forms there arises eye-consciousness. The meeting of the three is contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. This is the origination of the world."

Loka Sutta: The World