[limpoporanique]

Hi all,

I was looking at this Ajahn Chah quote #54 in the section 'Kamma' at the link and I wondered if there were any comments about it from our members who practice with or are investigating the various Buddhist traditions.



Good actions bring good results; bad actions bring bad results. Don’t expect the gods to do things for you, or the angels and guardian deities to protect you, or the auspicious days to help you.

These things aren’t true. Don’t believe in them. If you believe in them, you will suffer. You will always be waiting for the right day, the right month, the right year, the angels, or the guardian deities. You’ll only suffer that way.

Look into your own actions and speech, into your own kamma. Doing good, you inherit goodness, doing bad you inherit badness.


http://www.dharmaweb.org/index.php/N...h:_Reflections

[gamblingstats]

I freely admit to being a delinquent, uninformed practitioner, but I will add my two cents. This echos one of my main frustrations with so many people today, mainly that they are waiting for something to change their lives. Either an outside force to change it for them; or they are waiting for the right circumstance to change it themselves.

No one will come in and change our lives for us, we have to change it ourselves. The gods will not stop your habit energy and affect positive change, only you can do that. You can spend your whole life waiting for the 'right' time; or you can decide to change things now.

[Hedkffiz]

I agree entirely. The only person controlling my life is me, and that goes the same for everyone else.

I used to believe in God and fate and destiny, and nothing good ever came out of my waiting and praying. But I dropped all of those notions and eventually started taking responsibility for myself, and now I'm probably the happiest I've ever been.

[brraverishhh]

These are wise words, I used to beleive in a god aswell. My family are all Christians and I was raised that way but as I got older I realised there are no miracles in this world, only science. Which oddly enough brought me to Buddhism. The understanding of karma, and action/reaction is the most logical way of interpreting the world.

That being said, I dont really know the Buddhist veiw on other religions, I would have thought being a true Christian (showing compassion and kindness ect) would have positive effects on peoples karma.

[Liaptoono]

If one defined being a true christian as showing compassion and kindness, then doing that would net them good karma, I think.
No Buddhist I know has the kind of "join us or suffer" attitude a lot of other religions (or belief structures in general) have.

That being said, if a person who could follow all the tenants of the Bible (or Torah, or Qur'an) to an acceptable degree (and without contradiction) could even exist, I'm not sure their first concern would be compassion. The moral contents of the bible frequently worry me. Possibly to an irrational and unreasonable extent.

[no02rSx2]

I'd appreciate it if we could keep our posts relevant to Buddhism and the quote #1 rather than starting a discussion about other religions, please .

Ajahn Chah lived in a Buddhist culture in Thailand, so the 'gods' and 'deities' he mentioned would be relating to some of the beliefs within that culture.

[juspimoubbodo]

It has always seemed to me that the Buddha valued agency, taking responsibility into one's own hands and doing what needs to be done. The path is meant to be walked and the river is meant to be forded. It is useless to merely hope and pray for the end of suffering and rely on others in positions of power to take care of the means for doing so. It needs to be actualized by oneself.

[gopsbousperie]

Interesting quote. In the meditation temple I attend in NY state, various dieties are prayed to for protection, guidance and compassion. I see these vows and prayers not to be taken literally and passively as would be the stance that Ajahn Chah criticizes.

The whole atmosphere, statues, symbols and such within the Buddhist religion are often used to inspire and motivate our own internal spiritual longings. I agree with Ajahn Chah's assertion that self reliance is tantamount to a good and holy life. Yet I find the various dieties within Buddhism and Hinduism and even Paganism to be beneficial for the collective imagination and reveal mysteries of mythological symbolism.

Yet as far as "God" or any of the Abrahamic religions are concerned, I see them as overtly patriarchal propaganda tools constructed by mankind and abused for centuries against mankind. A few of the saints such as Francis of Assisi are inspirational as historical heroes in their own right, but they can only point the way to liberation.

No god, diety, or even Buddha Shakyamuni himself can do the work for you or make you enlightened or answer your prayers directly. So all that gods and dieties can really do is reflect your own states of heart and mind.

[NutChusty]

The whole atmosphere, statues, symbols and such within the Buddhist religion are often used to inspire and motivate our own internal spiritual longings.

Thanks Bgood,

It is an insightful approach to the issue. For some, this is the way it works, and if it works, thats OK.

[Scfdglkn]

The whole atmosphere, statues, symbols and such within the Buddhist religion are often used to inspire and motivate our own internal spiritual longings Yet not necessarily taught or used by the Buddha himself, of course. However, that's probably the subject of another topic to this one.

[Kokomoxcv]

Yet not necessarily taught or used by the Buddha himself, of course. However, that's probably the subject of another topic to this one.

Temples and Buddhist art were not used by the Buddha himself because he was the originator of the Buddhist religion and would therefore pre-date and have established the traditions we follow. I didn't really understand where you were coming from with this obvious statement. If Buddha was to worship a statue of himself, or his face in a pond, that would be narcissism. Yet THAT'S probably the subject of another topic! lol

Is buddhism a form of self worship? If it really is so, I believe that it's good....to an extent (middle way). It is all about evolutionary movement beyond self.

[snislarne]

Temples and Buddhist art were not used by the Buddha himself because he was the originator of the Buddhist religion and would therefore pre-date and have established the traditions we follow. I didn't really understand where you were coming from with this obvious statement. If Buddha was to worship a statue of himself, or his face in a pond, that would be narcissism. Yet THAT'S probably the subject of another topic! lol
.

Well obviously I know they weren't used by the Buddha. My point is that there's nothing to suggest that he would have approved of ornate temples, statues etc, nor is there any record in the Pali canon of him teaching 'deity' practices to his students.

I may start another discussion about this later but meanwhile lets get back to the topic of the quote #1 again now, thanks.

[adactthrd]

Oh Ok. I didn't understand where you were coming from. I agree there is nothing to suggest of ornate temples and such that should succeed Our Enlightened Teacher after death but it was sort of inevitable for humanity to create in such a great presence of illumination. But did he not teach of prior buddhas? Didn't he claim to be a reincarnation of Manjushri or some other yogi? I am sincerely somewhat confused and ambivalent with that.

I wonder if Buddha relied on a 'higher power', at least in some point in time in his revolutionary life. I just wonder how Buddha founded peace and harmony with the ancient Hindu dieties like Vishnu and Ganesh. I think he incorporated everything extraordinary and mundane. So for the topic, I say, expect all the gods to come into your favor, because you are coming into alignment with them as a bodhisattva. Even if gods are imaginary, they still dominate humanity.

[Fetowip]

So for the topic, I say, expect all the gods to come into your favor, because you are coming into alignment with them as a bodhisattva. Even if gods are imaginary, they still dominate humanity.

I don't feel that ''gods'' from myths, fantasy or metaphor actually dominate me in any way at all. I agree with Ajahn Chah.

These things aren’t true. Don’t believe in them. If you believe in them, you will suffer. You will always be waiting for the right day, the right month, the right year, the angels, or the guardian deities. You’ll only suffer that way

The only ''gods'' I notice in our world are the rich, the powerful, the famous, and the ''celebrities'' hyped in the media magazines and tabloid press !

[KixdricyArrip]

The only ''gods'' I notice in our world are the rich, the powerful, the famous, and the ''celebrities'' hyped in the media magazines and tabloid press !

I agree. For example, people rely on elected officials to follow through on their promises to implement real change. Rather than organize at a grassroots level to make changes for society, and rather than meditate/reflect to make changes for themselves, people turn to the "gods" of our world: the rich, the powerful, and often the corrupt. Doing so will produce no reliable results. Taking matters into one's own hands will.

[Ubgvuncd]

The only ''gods'' I notice in our world are the rich, the powerful, the famous, and the ''celebrities'' hyped in the media magazines and tabloid press !

My name is Johnny Panic, and I support this post.

Yeah, people put massive amounts of faith in ideals like money, fame, faith, sometimes even fear, war, and government. I've met too many people who expect that by wanting something (usually fame or money) enough, it will magically appear to them. But not only does it not work out, but those things are entirely too temporary and surface-level to result in legitimate happiness anyways.

[DonnyKong]

Even if gods are imaginary, they still dominate humanity.

maybe, but as Buddhists, we enter a different kind of life...

...it was sort of inevitable for humanity to create in such a great presence of illumination.

maybe, but generally most religious founders did not recommend ornate temples, be they Moses, Buddha, Jesus or Mohamed (PBUH)

But did he not teach of prior buddhas?

maybe but dubious, although some scriptures mention so. but buddha was Sammasambuddha (Perfectly Self Enlightened without a teacher who starts the Buddhist religion). thus any prior buddhas were not an influence. to regard the Buddha as having a teacher means one does not have faith in the Triple Gem

...Didn't he claim to be a reincarnation of Manjushri or some other yogi?

definitely not

...I wonder if Buddha relied on a 'higher power', at least in some point in time in his revolutionary life.

Buddha-To-Be was part of the samana tradition that practised aseticism. they relied in self-reliance. but when Buddha learned to tap into the 'Nirvana Stream', he certainly relied on a 'higher power', which is something natural, like gravity or homeostatis. if we actually meditate ourself, we can be without doubt about this higher natural non-personal power

...I just wonder how Buddha founded peace and harmony with the ancient Hindu dieties like Vishnu and Ganesh. .

a mind at peace is at peace with everything. it understands there is difference in the world and is at peace with that difference. it does not try to change that difference unless it knows with certainly that difference wishes to & can change

...So for the topic, I say, expect all the gods to come into your favor, because you are coming into alignment with them as a bodhisattva.

if you mean as a bodhisattva we cultivate metta-karuna-upeka towards these mundane 'gods', the answer here is certainly 'yes'

kind regards

[erepsysoulptnw]

This quote by Ajahn Chah surprises me because it clearly challenges most other religions such as Christianity which says that Jesus is God. It is an overt 'slap in the face' to Christians and pretty much destroys their whole premise of faith at it's very core and foundations. Buddhism always taught tolerance and acceptance of other religions, so this quote is rather bold and even controversial to many other God believing religions.

I agree with his focus on personal responsibility for our lives, but has he or could he have offended alot of other non-buddhists with such a clear and logical statement on faith? I would suppose that many Christian theologians, Jewish rabbis and Islamic fundamentalists would be up in arms against this strong Buddhist assertion. The Christian message for instance clearly teaches to rely on God's will and not one's own.

So therefore this statement posits that nearly all other religions are wrong and Buddhism is the correct, right way. At least this is how I plainly see it. Perhaps Buddhists must tolerate other religions in order to have peace, although knowing in our hearts that most Christians, Jews, and Muslims are gravely delusional and misguided. Yet I understand the primary focus of our practice is always within, and not so without.

Peace and Wisdom to all of you!

[Wxrxnhar]

This quote by Ajahn Chah surprises me because it clearly challenges most other religions such as Christianity which says that Jesus is God. It is an overt 'slap in the face' to Christians and pretty much destroys their whole premise of faith at it's very core and foundations. Buddhism always taught tolerance and acceptance of other religions, so this quote is rather bold and even controversial to many other God believing religions.

I agree with his focus on personal responsibility for our lives, but has he or could he have offended alot of other non-buddhists with such a clear and logical statement on faith? I would suppose that many Christian theologians, Jewish rabbis and Islamic fundamentalists would be up in arms against this strong Buddhist assertion. The Christian message for instance clearly teaches to rely on God's will and not one's own.

So therefore this statement posits that nearly all other religions are wrong and Buddhism is the correct, right way. At least this is how I plainly see it. Perhaps Buddhists must tolerate other religions in order to have peace, although knowing in our hearts that most Christians, Jews, and Muslims are gravely delusional and misguided. Yet I understand the primary focus of our practice is always within, and not so without.

Ajahn Chah was giving the talk in his Buddhist monastery in Thailand which is a Buddhist country.

He was not refering to other religions and I already mentioned this #6.

You appear to have completely misunderstood and gone off in another direction !



.

[Hlennisal]

Ajahn Chah was giving the talk in his Buddhist monastery in Thailand which is a Buddhist country. Well, I understand that he was addressing Buddhists, but why wouldn't his statement apply to every human being on the planet regardless of what religion they are or which country they live in????

I'm sure that Ajahn Chah would say the same thing in any circumstance, that is if he was courageous and bold enough to stick to his guns. I would have to say he was speaking and implying this quote universally. If not, then it doesn't hold any water or credibility any more than just some meaningless platitude.