[CevepBiageCefm]

My own teacher says that if you don't have "fierce" compassion (that's his word for it) for a mosquito that just bit you because of how that sentient being has to live its life, then you should not practice in the Vajrayana, because you haven't shown sufficient urgency to gain immediate enlightenment.

I don't bring this line of thinking to "Beyond Belief". because, for me at least, "Beyond Belief" (the forum, rather than the actual concept, of course) means "Within the realm of possibility---for those who practice Theravada". I learned that early and often.

Hi tjampel,

This is off topic - but I'm not at all clear what you're saying here. Are you perhaps implying that Theravadins don't feel compassion for mosquitos ?

( I also didn't notice anyone gaining 'immediate enlightenment' during the years when I practised Vajrayana, by the way!)

[Boripiomi]

Dear Srivijava,
I think the teachings of Buddha are precise.

Hi Bothi
In the sex & sangha thread you state:
Buddha's teachings are not as precise as you think. So which is it?

Where do you stand?

Please kindly note that all the attachments are beliefs anyway. That is why Tathagata introduced the attachment issue. See Element's reply.

[Pa33anger]

how did the Buddha help to end the suffering of mosquitos; that's really what I'm ultimately trying to get to

sufficient urgency to gain immediate enlightenment.

Is it just me or does anyone else come here & have a good laugh

No offense to tjampel btw

[kvitacencia]

Hi tjampel,

This is off topic - but I'm not at all clear what you're saying here. Are you perhaps implying that Theravadins don't feel compassion for mosquitos ?

( I also didn't notice anyone gaining 'immediate enlightenment' during the years when I practised Vajrayana, by the way!)

I'm not implying that at all. Of course those who practice in the Theravada tradition have compassion for mosquitos! I'm referring, of course, to having compassion conjoined with the wish for enlightenment (for the benefit of all sentient beings, both as a wish and as an actively engaged practice), which is why I tried to do just that; I guess I failed to do it well.

No person should practice in the vajrayana tradition unless they feel the same desire to actually help mosquitos as they feel to help humans, based on having previously meditated successfully on equanimity. They should wish to get enlightened immediately (that is to say, in one lifetime, if possible....that's immediate compared to 3 countless eons) for the purpose of helping every sentient being; that includes every single mosquito that ever bit them. Now you can't do much with a mosquito in its current life but you can help it over trillions of years, if you believe in that kind of stuff. In vajrayana, they do.

I don't know who has and who hasn't gained enlightenment. In any tradition people claim that so and so has achieved such and such realization. Do you believe them? It's no different in Vajrayana; there are various practitioners who are said to have achieved a variety of realizations, up to enlightenment, and some of them are living today. You can't know unless and until you achieve a level of realization where you too are within reach of that goal. It would be really great if you could see a physical change that was undeniable in every being that achieved the level of arhat or even stream enterer/arya; then we could compare between traditions, and choose the one with the highest percentage, I suppose.

[Gadarett]

the Four Noble Truths are as follows:

1. Attachment to the five aggregates is suffering

2. The origin of suffering is the arising of craving

3. The cessation of suffering is the cessation of craving

4. The Noble Eightfold Path is the way to the cessation of craving

If people with a birth defect can realise the Four Noble Truths, they will cease to suffer

Physical sickness, injury or deformity is not suffering

When the Buddha was dying his body had great pain & sickness but his mind did not suffer

If we are interested in learning about Buddhism, the following scripture is a clear explanation of suffering & its cessation

Kind regards

Hi Element;

I agree with all you have to say except this one thing (and maybe there's a good explanation which harmonizes on this topic)

Are you saying that suffering pain, in and of itself, isn't suffering because there are beings that don't suffer when exposed to painful physical conditions? I have always through the the Buddha taught that there are three types of suffering, physical pain (we call it suffering of suffering), suffering of change (pleasure doesn't last), and pervasive suffering, which are the continuously produced results of constantly misperceiving self and phenomena and then acting upon all the consequences of the ignorance (which holds them to be self-existent), which gives rise to a mass of mental fabrications, likes, dislikes, desires, cravings, etc.

Can you clarify why the first type of suffering mentioned here is not considered suffering? Perhaps it's just a difference in how traditions present suffering?

thanks

tj

[Corporal White]

there are various practitioners who are said to have achieved a variety of realizations, up to enlightenment, and some of them are living today. You can't know unless and until you achieve a level of realization where you too are within reach of that goal.

Yes, I already know that - and sadly that can also sometimes be a convenient party line for some with lesser achievements posing as great teachers. Especially if the students are encouraged to view the teacher as a manifestation of the Buddha.

It would be really great if you could see a physical change that was undeniable in every being that achieved the level of arhat or even stream enterer/arya; then we could compare between traditions, and choose the one with the highest percentage, I suppose.

Maybe it would for some, but I think that if all the modern 'gurus' were crowded into a large room before a special test, it's possible that it might be almost empty afterwards, lol !

....or even stream enterer

Said to be the same as the first Bodhisattva level, by the way.

[Creelaleps]

It's just the randomness of nature, the natural (unmediated by ignorance and the mental states that are outflows from it) order of things. This is a materialist view and, as one who studied in the sciences for quite a while, it makes sense on a certain level. Of course, this is not the view that I nurture nor the view that I favor. That doesn't mean it's incorrect. It means that I need to practice a lot harder and achieve insight myself to understand these issues in greater depth. Then I'll have more than just an opinion.

Hi tj,
The 'randomness of nature' angle is just another theory. Perhaps its in our nature to rationalize our world but whatever label we pin to it is only ever just that - a label. Some labels work sometimes and in some contexts, so they have their uses. I guess science couldn't function without them but you know more about that than me.

Regarding the Vajrayana angle, I also find it completely valid as I have HYT empowerments and training. It comes down to how its understood etc.

[lollypop]

Hi tj,
The 'randomness of nature' angle is just another theory. Perhaps its in our nature to rationalize our world but whatever label we pin to it is only ever just that - a label. Some labels work sometimes and in some contexts, so they have their uses. I guess science couldn't function without them but you know more about that than me.

Regarding the Vajrayana angle, I also find it completely valid as I have HYT empowerments and training. It comes down to how its understood etc.

Hi srivijaya;

I agree with you once again. I am using "randomness of nature" because Kaarine uses that. I try to find some common ground and work with it. That way it's easier to see where we agree and disagree. I don't buy into that notion myself, but if someone else uses it and believes in it then why not follow it and see where it leads.

take care!

tj

[expabsPapsgag]

Yes, I already know that - and sadly that can also sometimes be a convenient party line for some with lesser achievements posing as great teachers. Especially if the students are encouraged to view the teacher as a manifestation of the Buddha.



Maybe it would for some, but I think that if all the modern 'gurus' were crowded into a large room before a special test, it's possible that it might be almost empty afterwards, lol !



Said to be the same as the first Bodhisattva level, by the way.

Yes....1st bodhisattva level= Achieving Path of Seeing [emptiness directly/non-conceptually]= Stream Enterer

Namkai Norbu once said that there were only about 5 current Tibetan teachers who he believed to be enlightened (not sure if he was including himself in that group either).

In my lineage we're taught that our teachers are probably not highly realized beings (though we should not speculate one way or the other); they have flaws; we should not accept their reasoning, if we can make a good counterargument. My own teacher, as an example, oncec disagreed with a statement make by HHDL, who practices in our lineage. And HHDL's statement, that my own teacher disagreed with, was one disagreeing with a statement by Je Tsongkhapa, who founded the lineage. My teacher said that Je Tsongkhapa was correct and HHDL was wrong. This is common. In fact, Atisha, who is the father of 3 of the 4 main lineages (all the "new sarma" lineages) in Tibet, and who wrote the original Lam Rim work, which included a section on relating to teachers that was used as the template for all other Lam Rim works, totally disagreed on view with his own teacher, Serlingpa, whom he studied with in Indonesia. Serlingpa's view was Mind-Only (Cittamatra); Atisha was firmly rooted in Madyamaka Prasangika. However, Atisha's studies with Serlingpa concerned mainly development of bodhicitta---he was considered the best source for these teachings in the world at the time. So he was an effective teacher for Atisha.

I pity anyone who thinks they're forced to accept that their own teacher as a perfect Buddha. If their own teacher has all or most of the qualities that they are looking for in a teacher be happy with that. When your own teacher has some flaws but is able to teach effectively, learn from the teachings and don't discount the correct teachings due to personal flaws, and don't obsess about the flaws or the correct teachings and advices of your teacher will seem tainted (but don't engage in denial about what you see and know). When the flaws are of a magnitude where one doubts that such a teacher has achieved the level of control of her or his own mind to be able to retain the trust of the student, (for example, the teacher is known to sleep with students), or when one believes that the teacher's understanding of doctrine is seriously flawed (or we just can't accept it at all) then look elsewhere.

A lot of misconception about Tibetan practice comes from those who fail to separate actual visualizations, in which an idealized version of a being is mentally constructed, from relating, day to day, to spiritual friends. The former requires specific visual requirements and the being generated is imbued with all sorts of divine qualities. This is a meditation object, a mentally created object; nothing else.

The being we relate to day to day is viewed as the means to achieve the visualized being; it may have some modest realizations, or deeper ones. We view it as connected to the Buddha in the sense that it can teach us the dhamma so as to confer maximum benefit on us and a Buddha must appear and announce itself to us. So, in the absence of any announced Buddha this is the best and highest source of dhamma available to us.

If a teacher has no superior spiritual qualities which set it off from the student then it can't be an effective teacher, of course. A teacher points out the weaknesses and misconceptions of the student and instructs the student how to meditate, how to understand certain concepts, etc. It must have superior knowledge of scripture and of meditative states to be effective. It does NOT need to have achieved stream entry. Of course, it would be nice....

[pavilionnotebook]

To all,

I was born with 3 mental deseases,suffered a good part of my life.I beleive this was the karma I received at birth.These mental deseases did not stop me from being a survivor.

In this instant,I had my 5th heart operation a month ago ,have eight tares in both my knees, have ateriosclorosis of the brain, I have eye problems, you will not often here me complain.
Been going to aGym from 8 days now,already doubled what program was given to me at the beginning. All the suffering ,I have overcome,thanks to the Dharma.

Today with all these deficiencies ,I live ablissfull life ,a happiness never Imagined possible. What was a bad karma,has become a great karma.I help people in needs, I listen to others that suffer,and try to give them support. I live with $1,355. a month with a rent of $575, plus hydro plus cable plus phone.

I would not change an iota of my past life,because of what I am living now. I have detached or unattached from a lot of material things,and mental things.

A karma is a karma is a karma.

Karma was not created by chineese but by hindis.

May all living beings and especially sentient beings ,live in harmony with nature and the universe.

loong

[Stainditnew]

Buddhism encompasses in it various notions such as Buddha (historic and otherwise), Karma (law of cause and effect and otherwise), rebirth (reincarnation of the mind continuum and otherwise) which are understood by different Buddhists in different ways. We could go on forever and get many different "Buddhist" reasonings for being born with a birth defect.

The fact is however that Buddha taught the Four Noble Truths and the first truth was not that life was suffering, as I have read here, but that Samsara was suffering, where Samsara is held to mean the cycle of life and death and that there are causes of suffering, a cessation of these causes and the path to their cessation. Indeed it is only by following the eightfold noble path to the cessation of all suffering that we become liberated from the cycle of life and death called Samsara and thus avoid being born with birth defects. For surely in some lifetime or another in the past or future we all have been born in Samsara with birth defects to a lesser and greater degree and this is because we have not yet been liberated from Samsara.

[HagsPusia]

Today with all these deficiencies, I live ablissfull life, a happiness never Imagined possible. What was a bad karma,has become a great karma. I help people in needs, I listen to others that suffer, and try to give them support. I live with $1,355. a month with a rent of $575, plus hydro plus cable plus phone. I would not change an iota of my past life, because of what I am living now.

thanks

[ffflyer]

Have posts been deleted from this thread? I am not sure but I think I saw some posts in this thread before which are not there anymore

[TagBahthuff]

Have posts been deleted from this thread? I am not sure but I think I saw some posts in this thread before which are not there anymore

Hi Deshy

Some posts were moved to 'Enlightened, then death, then what?' (see #15)

http://www.buddhismwithoutboundaries...th...then-what

Otherwise I don't remember, because it was started 6 weeks ago and its possible for members to delete their own posts up to 12 hours afterwards.

[Ifroham4]

ok thanks