[Tumarimmicdak]

The article at the link below is by the USA vipassana teacher Jack Kornfield and is in the Psychotherapy/Meditation section at Buddhanet. Title : "Even the best meditators have old wounds to heal".

I wondered if anyone had comments relating to any of his main points - or to the topic in general.

I was quite surprised to read this :

"These problems exist for most vipassana teachers as well. Many of us have led very unintegrated lives, and even after deep practice and initial "enlightenment experiences," our sitting practice has left major areas of our beings unconscious, fearful, or disconnected.

Many American vipassana teachers are now, or have recently been, in psychotherapy in order to deal with these issues."
http://www.buddhanet.net/psymed1.htm

.

[Carfanate]

Regarding the part of the quote above :

even after deep practice and initial "enlightenment experiences," our sitting practice has left major areas of our beings unconscious, fearful, or disconnected. I did wonder about what his personal definition of 'deep practice' and ' initial enlightenment experiences' was.

[TimoDass]

I am not sure how Americans practices vipassana, Wiki seems to imply that it is about observing anicca, anatta and dukkha, and from it, experience sunyata or understand the truth of reality.

If this is the case, I can understand why.

It is like everyone is carrying a baggage of emotional traumas. At best, this approach allows you to not put any new emotional traumas into the baggage. At worst, this makes you unaware of your baggage. You can only ignore your emotional traumas for so long before they come out to haunt you.

The way to handle this is to open the baggage, take these traumas out one at a time and deal with them.

[casefexas]

Many people resist the personal and psychological roots of their suffering; there is so much pain in truly experiencing our bodies, our personal histories, our limitations. It can even be harder than facing the universal suffering that surfaces in sitting. We fear the personal and its sorrow because we have not learned how it can serve as our practice and open our hearts.

We need to look at our whole life and ask ourselves. "Where am I awake, and what am I avoiding ? Do I use my practice to hide ? In what areas am I conscious, and where am I fearful, caught, or unfree?" Very poignant and honest. I think it demonstrates that no 'method' is a magic wand and that we must be willing to allow the light to shine on all aspects of our personal makeup.

[viagra-kaufen]

personally, i would not take JK too seriously

i have listened to many of JK's audio talks

JK was a monk with Ajahn Chah, returned to the USA, disrobed and embarked upon the simultaneous path of sexual indulgence & meditation guru

this he has communicated in his audio talks

then, i recall, if my memory serves me right, a woman approached JK and advised him his sexual indulgences (promiscuity) did not befit his public profile as a dhamma teacher

then, i recall, if my memory serves me right, that woman became JK's wife

thus, when JK talks of 'the best meditators', 'deep practise', 'enlightenment experiences', etc, i would not take him too seriously

wounds are moral issues to be addressed by developing moral insight & then asserting that moral insight

'the best meditators' develop insight into harmfulness & harmlessness and thus have the means to reconcile past wounds

but JK's early history did not show any profound insight into morality thus he would not have had the means to address wounds

if one is still engaged in behaviour that wounds, such as casual heedless sex, how can one address wounds?

JK is simply marketing himself & his business

kind regards

[ROYMANgo]

Well, I can't tell anything about JK. But I get this impression reading his essay about the Eightfold Noble Path (ENP):

I started it, I dropped it. Something was not resonating with me.

After a while, an essay of this same subject -ENP- by Bhikkhu Bodhi has resonated deeply for the understanding I am getting from the teachings of Buddha.

From the above posts, seems that JK is the kind of "new age" teacher that has taken Buddha mindfulness aspect away from the ethical/meditation/wisdom frame. And those are the results.

But as any impression, I may be wrong.

[wllsqyuipknczx]

I haven't read Kornfield & don't know much about him. I've not heard him described by anyone as "new agey". So I'll just speak from the POV of my tradition, which differs vastly from his.

I know that my meditation teacher, who's (for me at least) the antithesis of "new agey", states that, as meditation skills improve, obstacles deeply rooted in one's emotional makeup, or which may have been hidden from view, altogether (childhood trauma and the like) will definitely appear and must be confronted.

How one does that is the subject a varying opinions among traditions and even intra-tradition. This makes sense. Otherwise you would have the absurd consequence of a practitioner with serious psychological problems having achieved nonconceptual insight into emptiness and the like.

If an unpleasant occurrence from 20 years ago can negatively impact one's life 20 years later, causing one to suffer greatly at times, to cling, to fear, to avoid certain things, what chance is there that this same person is able to let go of her or his self-concept totally. They can't let go of just one memory and associated thoughts.

I know of at least 5 different techniques that are taught just in my lineage. It depends on the type of practitioner, the nature of the obstacle, the level of practice, and whether "Plan A" worked.

These techniques range from noting the object and and gently bringing the mind back to the meditation object, or doing a "time out" and concentrating on the breath for a while (for slight disturbances, only), making this disturbing emotion/memory the meditation object itself (temporarily, of course), doing purification or working to generate some opposite mental state...(deepening non-harm through meditation on compassion, love, for example) , meditating on emptiness of this appearance, as a means to let go, and (in certain circumstances), using wrathful means (confrontation) to smash the obstacle that holds us back from freeing ourselves (recognizing it as an enemy).

[snunsebrugs]

[...]develop insight into harmfulness & harmlessness and thus have the means to reconcile past wounds

This is the experience of the way I have had worked past wounds. It is completly in accordance with the advice given along the Buddha teachings in his suttas.

Just to mention two of them... M19 & M20.

[Thydaysuh]

I know of at least 5 different techniques that are taught just in my lineage.

Please allow me to introduce another technique. This one simply involves asking yourself "Why." "Why did I get angry when I read that article?" "Why do I feel lonely right now?"Be specific about the incident and the feeling and keep asking, until one day, when you encounter the same situation, you all of a sudden realize you don't behave and feel the same as before. Use your daily encounters and your memories.

[Tribas4u]

Hi Yuan;

I should have stated that I was only referring to techniques used while in seated meditation. So, of course, asking one's self this question is good; being mindful of these issues and disturbances as they arise in non-meditation states is good. Sometimes, of course, they only arise in meditation because they just don't percolate above the deeper reaches of one's mind. I did mention using the issue as a meditation object; that may consist of investigating "why". Psychotherapy might be the answer for some who can't access and expose these "wounds" through meditation.

In any event these issues must be dealt with before serious progress can be made. As one of my teachers once suggested, you might do worse than define liberation as being able to answer truly 100% of the time "I'm fine" and totally mean it.

[opelonafqe]

Hi Yuan;
I should have stated that I was only referring to techniques used while in seated meditation.

Hi TJ,

Me too. Actually, the technique that I suggest can be done in non-seated meditation as well, can be done outside of meditation, within meditation and at anytime that you wish.

I would think that if you can focus on anything you want in your meditation, why not focus on the causes of your negative emotions and find ways to eliminated the causes? Why treat these "negativity" as some other external objects? Why not deal with them as they are, part of yourself that you need to fix?

[Âåðåùàãèí]

Hi TJ,

Me too. Actually, the technique that I suggest can be done in non-seated meditation as well, can be done outside of meditation, within meditation and at anytime that you wish.

I would think that if you can focus on anything you want in your meditation, why not focus on the causes of your negative emotions and find ways to eliminated the causes? Why treat these "negativity" as some other external objects? Why not deal with them as they are, part of yourself that you need to fix?

Hi Yuan;

All great ideas :-)

I think that's what I'm referring to, in part, when I refer to making the negative emotion the object of your meditation. You watch it; by watching it you observe the way it arises and ceases. And this allows you to see associated thoughts and emotions. You can also bring the empty nature of those emotions into the mix. And you can see your negativity as an enemy that needs to be eliminated and seek to destroy the enemy (there are various techniques), and you can also engage in the opposite kinds of behaviors as an antidote to drive out the negative behavior. For anger, cultivate love, etc.

[bestbyV]

I think that's what I'm referring to, in part, when I refer to making the negative emotion the object of your meditation. You watch it; by watching it you observe the way it arises and ceases.

Hi TJ,

Just curious, why are you externalizing your emotions? If all that you see are "emptiness", why are you creating "emptiness" in your mind? What's the purpose of creating "illusions" that you can defeat? Defeating illusions will only accomplish one thing, and that is defeating illusions.

I have always wondered why people who love to say everything is "empty" are so fond of creating things to see and to feel in their mind.

[Buhoutsoupfap]

A combination of Samatha meditation practice and contemplation of the 5 Khandas can be helpful for 'old wounds', in my opinion. Unless of course one has severe mental health problems, in which case specific therapies from mental health professionals may be necessary.

When the mind is peaceful and settled, with more expansive awareness and clarity, its possible to gently relax mind and body completely and place one's awareness with the breathing and then just let go of insubstantial negative thoughts/emotions as they arise. In this way one becomes less and less attached to them and with the arising of insight one begins to cling less to ''my problems''. Additionally one can also employ this method wherever one happens to be.

There's a talk "The Five Khandas" from Ajahn Sucitto which I think is very helpful from 4.0 onwards.

http://forestsanghapublications.org/viewTalk.php?id=380

[sherrferris]

A combination of Samatha meditation practice and contemplation of the 5 Khandas can be helpful for 'old wounds', in my opinion.

I can share this experience with Aloka. I had emotional deep wounds. Before Buddhism I went to counseling with meditation so to explore the "why's" of my feelings. It was like a mule hanging around the treadmill.

I just make things really hard because my temper.

Recently, when I get in touch with the teachings of Buddha and through the understanding of the 5 Khandas doctrine and the non self, and the consiousness dependent on its external objects so to land there, the wounds started to take a kind of hazy nature fading away with no harm or trace.

Nowadays I can have a better relationship with the person who, during my childhood, left painful wounds. IMO, to keep round and around with such issues can lead to never let go them.

The contemplation of such wounds as just mental fabrications has done the overcoming job wonderful. The person is still dealing with that past and I am trying to help her. But I know that sometimes seems to late because of age and loosing mental freshness makes things really hard. That is why to practice now is very important.

Later on, I started Anapanasati, folowing step by step what Buddha left in that instructive sutta. I have found Breathing as the best relieving tool for life.

When the mind is peaceful and settled, with more expansive awareness and clarity, its possible to gently relax mind and body completely and place one's awareness with the breathing and then just let go of insubstantial negative thoughts/emotions as they arise. In this way one becomes less and less attached to them and with the arising of insight one begins to cling less to ''my problems''. Additionally one can also employ this method wherever one happens to be.

There's a talk "The Five Khandas" from Ajahn Sucitto which I think is very helpful from 4.0 onwards. For the very few real experiences I have had after this years into Buddhism I can tell that this is similar to that of Aloka.

http://forestsanghapublications.org/viewTalk.php?id=380


Thanks for the link Aloka,

[cliceperperIa]

Hi Element,

I am reading what you are saying about Jack Kornfield in a state of questioning and surprise. I didn't know about his past or maybe present promiscuity.

We all know that Prince Sidharta was a bit of a lad when living in the palace. After a few decades of sense pleasures, he left his wife and child to go wandering around to find his own happiness. After going to the very extreme of deprivation, he decided that was all wrong and stubbornly sat under a tree until he felt enlightened and became a guru for the next 40 years.

I obviously don't believe a word of what I'm saying. We believe what we like but the truth is in the pudding.

Listening to Jack and reading his works are helping me in hard times. There is some interesting gossip about Master Deshimaru, Cheng Man Ching...

Kindest regards

Gyaltsen

[Snitiendumurn]

Hi G

What I said about Jack comes from his own speeches

I did not mention anything about the present regarding Jack

I referred to the past, before he was married

In brief, I did not post any gossip. I posted what i recall Jack shared about his life

Jack is and was always an excellent teacher therefore I trust his teachings are helping you

As I said, I once listened to many of his talks, when I used to play them for students to listen to

As for your gossip about the Buddha, there is no evidence he was a "lad" in the palace

The scriptures report he was entertained by "female musicians" however they do not mention sexually

Even if Siddhartha was a "lad", his situation could not be equivalent to that of Jack, who was a monk, learned the Dhamma, became a well known lay teacher but engaged in heedless sexuality

The point of my original post is, regardless of his good works as a teacher, Jack's claims to deep enlightment seem rather exaggerated

As such, his opinions have the potential to cause confusion in students, particularly those that are already confused

To end, there is nothing wrong with psychotherapy, which may be better suited to some individuals over meditation

Jack had exhibited integrity here by being honest about this

However, to assert those that have practised "deeply" require psychotherapy is not accurate

Jack himself embarked on his personal pyschotherapy. That was his path, which is fine

But to assert there is something "incomplete" in the Buddhist path can diminish trust in the Dhamma


Kind regards

Element

[boanuatiguali]

We all know that Prince Sidharta was a bit of a lad when living in the palace.

"We" ?

How is marriage being a ''bit of a lad'' ?

[Kitdowstyhodo]

Hi Element,

Sorry about the palace gossip. It's just I've heard some people saying really absurd things. Thanks for taking the time to clarify your position. I appreciate it and look forward to reading more posts in the future.

Kindest regards

Gyaltsen

[QwOpHGyZ]

Sorry Aloka-D. My provocation is backfiring.

Kindest regards

Gyaltsen