[TornadoPD]

All Schools of Buddhism teach as their basic tenet that there is a Path out of the suffering that pervades Samsara. Some Schools focus on Individual Liberation while other Schools of Buddhist Thought are based on ending the suffering of all Sentient Beings. Regardless of the form of Buddhism one follows any actions that leads to an increase in suffering should be avoided while any action that decreases suffering should be increased.

However, there are times when allowing a person to continue to suffer, or even increasing the level of suffering that a person feels in a deliberate way might be the only way to show them the negative continuances of their actions.

A good example of this is one of my family that has struggled with addiction to alcohol and drugs. Despite repeated pleas by her parents friends and extended family, she continued to drink and drug and suffer terrible pain as a result of her actions.

Having worked in a Rehab Center it became clear that no amount of debate would deter the downward spiral she was in and my advice to all involved was to disengage and allow her suffering to increase to the point where she would no longer be able to tolerate it and she herself would ask for help and be willing to take any steps needed to heal. In the end she has now been sober and living a happy life for years with no indication of returning to the behaviors that lead to her addiction.

There are many times in life that suffering is required to change. I know for myself all of the positive change I have made is based in suffering leading me to the point where I could not longer tolerate the pain and was willing to make hard choices. This seems to be true for all people.

So here is the question I am forced to ask myself -

Does Buddhist Thought allow for a person to deliberately increase the suffering of another person in the hope that it will teach a lesson that might otherwise never be learned?

As an ordinary Sentient Being I have very little if any way to see the long term results of my actions and might , and probably have , allowed someone to die in pain after having made the choice not to intervene, or worse took an active role in tossing them back into the deep end of the pool to teach them that they were not yet able to swim.

But what if they drown?

[usaguedriedax]

I don't know the Buddha's teaches on this specifically. However, I would think if the only way for them to progress away from suffering is to allow them to suffer more (temporarily) then that is what should be done. But I think this should be a last resort. You should explore all your options for helping them. We should always try to avoid causing more suffering. And even in the case that you allow them to suffer more the end result is less suffering.

[beriarele]

Does Buddhist Thought allow for a person to deliberately increase the suffering of another person in the hope that it will teach a lesson that might otherwise never be learned?

Definately not recommended in any tradition, to my knowledge. It sounds an extremely unskilful approach to one's Dharma practice.

But what if they drown?

I always remember a Tibetan rinpoche saying to a group of us "You can't save someone else from drowning until you have learnt to swim yourself. "

Speaking from my own experiences, it was very wise advice. I once put myself in grave danger mistakenly thinking I could "help" someone else.

[MichaelfromSpace]

Does Buddhist Thought allow for a person to deliberately increase the suffering of another person in the hope that it will teach a lesson that might otherwise never be learned?

In my opinion, this is not allowable from a Theravada perspective, although I understand a confluence of compassion and skillful means might result in this sort of thing according to a Mahayana ethic.

It strikes me as arrogant and unwholesome, full of wrong intention and wrong action, liable to going wrong in myriad ways. Better to lead by example than take such ridiculous risks.

[rikdpola]

Does Buddhist Thought allow for a person to deliberately increase the suffering of another person in the hope that it will teach a lesson that might otherwise never be learned?

hi Karma Yeshe

my impression is your post may not be clearly articulated in some aspects

however, for me, the example you provided about a family member with an addiction clarified your inquiry

i think your inquiry falls within the teaching of the Brahma Vihara, namely:

(1) metta: friendliness
(2) karuna: compassion (the wish to help others)
(3) mudita: appreciative joy
(4) upeka: equinimity

the Brahma Vihara instruct us to exercise compassion/helpfulness whenever we can

but, when we cannot help, then we exercise equinimity until the opportunity to help arises

so equinimity is not being uncaring or disinterested. the word 'upeka' has a linguistic root in the meaning 'to look'

equinimity is to be observant & composed until the opportunity arises to help

if the opportunity to help does not arise, then one must accept the other person is the creator, owner & heir of their actions

so, it seems the misconceptions arising from your post are due to the phrase: "allow for a person to deliberately increase the suffering of another person"

one person exercising equinimity does not "deliberately increase" the suffering of another person

imo, we are not 'God' or 'gods' that deliberately cause others to experience certain mental states

it is the other person that is increasing their own suffering

often, we can take upon ourselves the responsibilities of another where it is the responsibility of another to help themself

often, we can take upon ourselves the 'ownership' of the actions of others

so i agree, there are times, when our efforts to help others fail, we have no choice but to abandon our efforts, in the hope the other can come to a greater awareness of their own suffering & be more motivated to help themself

kind regards

element

[About developing the meditation on equanimity] the Buddha said that beings are the owners of their kamma (kammassakā), heirs of their kamma (kammadāyāda), have kamma as their origin (kammayonī), are related to their kamma (kammabandhū) and have kamma as their refuge (kammappatisaranā), whatever skilful or unskilful action (kamma) they do, they will inherit its results.

[Kimeoffessyr]

Definately not recommended in any tradition, to my knowledge. It sounds an extremely unskilful approach to one's Dharma practice.



I always remember a Tibetan rinpoche saying to a group of us "You can't save someone else from drowning until you have learnt to swim yourself. "

Speaking from my own experiences, it was very wise advice. I once put myself in grave danger mistakenly thinking I could "help" someone else.

Hi,

Thank you for your response.

I am not sure that I agree with you regarding skilled vs unskilled practice of Dharma in this context. I did get a bit more convoluted in my inital post than I first thought so let me put it in this context...

A teen aged boy picks a fight with a weaker student at school and is suspended. His parents, who are on the "A List" in their community, so to speak, intervenes with the Principal and the Boy is allowed to return to school and is faced with no punishment in any signifigent way. In a sense, this boys "suffering" in the short term was decreased by his parents but he is much more likely to become a bully or worse in his future.

There are many real life examples of this type of situation , just look at Paris Hilton Michiel Jackson or Linsey Lohan, one of whom has already suffered a painful death with Paris and Linsey not far behind. Jail time or a terrible withdrawal might just help but they are allowed to skate thru. Less famed exaples abound as well but are not reported. I am sure we can all think of cases we have seen in our own life when this has happened to someone we know.

The expeaeance of Suffering is the only thing that will make us want to change.

In no way would I hurt someone just to teach a life lession but I have allowed people to suffer the full effects of thier actions without interveneing.

All the Best

[GalasaKoll]

Hi KarmaYeshe,

You ask if suffering is good for the Soul?

Seems it is not. But to awake from it. To realize Dukkha, looks like it is.

IMO, the help that can be given -imbibed in loving kindness and compassion- should go toward that direction.

[lagunaEl]

A teen aged boy picks a fight with a weaker student at school and is suspended. His parents, who are on the "A List" in their community, so to speak, intervenes with the Principal and the Boy is allowed to return to school and is faced with no punishment in any signifigent way. In a sense, this boys "suffering" in the short term was decreased by his parents but he is much more likely to become a bully or worse in his future.

There are many real life examples of this type of situation , just look at Paris Hilton Michiel Jackson or Linsey Lohan, one of whom has already suffered a painful death with Paris and Linsey not far behind. Jail time or a terrible withdrawal might just help but they are allowed to skate thru

Speaking in my role as a secondary school teacher who is a specialist in working with teenagers with emotional and behavioral difficulties, I'd like to say that focussing too much on 'punishment' isn't the sort of outcome we would expect in the UK. There are strategies in schools to help and mentor both bullies and the bullied. The bullies themselves need as much understanding and help as the people they bully. Sometimes its the case that they are being bullied themselves by relatives or siblings and/or that there are problems in their home life, or other negative experiences which they have had which urgently need to be addressed.

A quick example I can think of is that of 2 brothers who both became bullies, who had been regularly beaten brutally by their father and had a harrowing time at home. I always remember one of them saying to me "Why are you so kind to me?"

The idea of "Punishment" for children reminds me of caning in schools as well as past views in the colonial western world - which are of course irrelevant to this discussion, lol !

Also, people who are 'A list' don't necessarily have less personal dukkha than anyone else! Rather than isolation and a long suspension from school, a bully is better placed back with the school community within a counselling/mentoring system.

As for celebrities, I think it is a great mistake to become judgemental about them from what we see coming from often biased sensationalist media outlets of one kind or another which benefit financially on stories for the gullible public.

Jail is certainly not the answer in this country for young people or for celebrities, because people can leave jail not only resentful, but having been taught more criminal activities by other prisoners than those they went in with, and I've heard, being able to obtain drugs there from other prisoners too.

A terrible withdrawal might just help but they are allowed to skate thru"

... what's that supposed to mean ?Sounds like extremism to me!
Have you ever had experience of taking drugs or drinking alcohol yourself or seen anyone in heroin withdrawal for example ? When people are having extreme physical and mental drug withdrawals, its a case for concern, not for turning one's back. Sometimes people can die in those circumstances. In general, I don't think anyone just 'skates through' addiction, whatever their social position in life.

In any case, who are we to judge people we've never even met and just see on TV, a computer, newspaper or magazine.

Sometimes I overhear women gossiping about what they read in relation to celebrities, at newspaper and magazine sections in supermarkets. Its papanca !

.

[Xqjfxmfk]

On a personal level, I can see that with the right attitude some good can come from every experience - if we change through it, and what does not kill you can make you stronger and all that.
However, I share Aloka-D's thoughts and sentiments about children ( and celebrity status, too) .
A child in my son's school has a learning and behavioural problem and is very much larger in build than most other boys of his age. He has been the brunt of many verbal and physical attacks at school and gives as good as he gets. I heard a group of parents saying that they were going to go to the Police about him and wanted him charged with assault ( he is 8 years old). I suggested that they speak to the school first and discuss their concerns. I was told the school had done nothing so far - the boy has been suspended more than once (he is in year 3 this year !!)and excluded from activities etc. I know his parents and after discussing the situation with colleagues and educational advisors I trust I decided to speak with the leadership in the school.
He has been moved up a class year in school ( his learning and behavioural difficulties meant that he was getting little work completed in the lower grade anyway ) and has been given a mentor and tutor in the new class and only attends 0.8 of a normal school week. It is working well for him.

[Ganoshenko]

Hi,

Thank You all for your responses.

It is always good to get another point of view for complex topics.

I am not sure if I condone some of the examples that I have posted but have had people that I know advocate thier views and I had wanted to get some feedback from a Buddhist prespective.

For example, Though I have not had a struggle with substance abuse I did work in a Rehab. Many of the staff who did have a history of addiction were very strong in the opinon that one of the best things that ever happened to them was a painful long withdrawal so that they would have that memory as a means to not fall back to their old habits. More than one Recovered Addict pushed very hard to only give meds to protect health during withdrawl and no pain meds or other support. I will admit that to me it does sound very harsh but was told in no uncertain terms that since I had never gone thru a withdrawal my input was irrelevent, as was the opinons of the medical staff since we "Just did not Get it"

That was a very eye opening thing to be around.

I also am not in favior of harsh punishments for teens but have seen some children grow up thinking they will be able to get away with everything and wonder if a bit of tough love might have helped.

All the Best

[YmolafBp]

For those interested in Buddhism who have addictions, this website might be helpful...

The Buddhist Recovery Network

"The Buddhist Recovery Network supports the use of Buddhist teachings, traditions and practices to help people recover from the suffering caused by addictive behaviors. Open to people of all backgrounds, and respectful of all recovery paths, the organization promotes mindfulness and meditation, and is grounded in Buddhist principles of non-harming, compassion and interdependence. It seeks to serve an international audience through teaching, training, treatment, research, publication, advocacy and community-building initiatives.

This website presents resources that can help illuminate the Buddhist path to freedom from alcoholism and addiction. "

http://www.buddhistrecovery.org/ .................................................. .................................................. .......................



Returning to this Beyond Belief forum again for a moment if I may, I'd just like to mention for the benefit of any members who haven't seen the new info, that the guidelines for posting topics and personal input in this particular forum have changed.

Firstly, its now for everyone, including beginners.

Secondly the description is now "A forum for free enquiry and critical exploration of Buddhism in the modern world."

Thank you, please continue.

[astonmartinrx371]

Karma Yeshe, kind of has a point with addiction in some ways, to most
recovering addicts theres a kind of "bottoming out" process, as someone whose suffered addictions myself one reaches a point where the sheer mess of things reaches the point where you can't go on, however if adequate support systems are not in place in the community it can lead to further addiction problems.

I gave up drugs after spending 10 weeks in a psych hospital after, I found it easy to give up after they were a contributing factor into developing psychosis. I moved to another city and got a place in supported accommodation for people recovering from psychiatric problems. The place was very badly run I didn't engage with the staff because I was still very psychotic and they really didn't make much of an effort to resolve the situation. There were two alcoholics there who didn't really have much in the way of problems with mental health and the staff despite knowing my past history of addiction were quite happy to let me start drinking with them and the whole cycle started again.

As for letting people suffer well its not just on them your inflicting suffering - its there family, friends and the community. Plus by letting the addiction carry on in the case of hard drugs or multiple addictions your risking the death of the addict. Its a tough call and one I wouldn't like to make but thats from my perspective on the bottoming out process. But you can put someone through the most expensive rehab in the world but until something in them wants to give up they won't. Some people also never bottom out.

With regards to prison, I've known plenty of people who've been to prison, I've never seen it really rehabilitated by it, just further brutalised, dehumanised and made a better criminal, particularly in the case of traumatised young people, further brutalising them at crucial stages in their development is a life long recipe for trouble.

With the long stretches given in America it might be different but thats just management really, take the person out of society for a very long time. Prison doesn't just dehumanise the prisoners but the guards as well. I knew a former prison officer who became an alcoholic as a reaction to the stress of the job.

I've also heard about the brutality of prison officers - someone i knew who had a partially severed finger in prison was told by the guard to stick it you know where! I don't have the answers I'll leave that to wiser minds but I just thought I'd share some perspectives from experience.

[crycleascentyv]

Thanks very much for sharing your experiences and reflections with us Traveller.

As for letting people suffer well its not just on them your inflicting suffering - its there family, friends and the community. Plus by letting the addiction carry on in the case of hard drugs or multiple addictions your risking the death of the addict

Yes, and there can also sometimes be dangers to the community as well as to the addict's own life.

I've also worked with the children of addicts and seen first hand how it affects families.

[mas-dkt-sive]

Just sharing .In Buddhism that I currently understand , suffering or to have a emotion of suffering is a reflection of own huge desire , greed or ego . But..............if we try to aware , understand or even to the extent of accepting this emotion of " suffering ".....indeed suffering is a teacher to greater awareness .

in Buddhism that I currently aware , one does not need to suffer just to learn to understand own shortcoming ..........as there are perhaps trillions ways to understand ownself .

Thks
CSEe

[espabamar]

However, there are times when allowing a person to continue to suffer, or even increasing the level of suffering that a person feels in a deliberate way might be the only way to show them the negative continuances of their actions.

Hi KY,
I can see where you are coming from on that, but it's a tough one to call. It's difficult to judge whether such an approach would kill or cure.

Despite repeated pleas by her parents friends and extended family, she continued to drink and drug and suffer terrible pain as a result of her actions. A clear example of obvious suffering but ultimately the symptom of a deeper suffering - the one Buddha was trying to instruct us on IMHO. Examples like these are obvious because we can all see and recognise them, like terminal illness, disability, mental states and so forth.

The reason a person turns to drink, drugs or any kind of substance, even apparently 'harmless' ones, is their capacity to relieve stress - the stress of 'being' who we are. Behind any addiction is a genuine longing for freedom from suffering and there are things which offer a temporary (and subsequently damaging) abatement.

I would think that rather than enforce more suffering on a person, it may be ultimately safer to lead them to this knowledge, although I'm not idealistic enough to think that this is an easy option.

Namaste
Kris

[capeAngedlelp]

The reason a person turns to drink, drugs or any kind of substance, even apparently 'harmless' ones, is their capacity to relieve stress - the stress of 'being' who we are. Behind any addiction is a genuine longing for freedom from suffering and there are things which offer a temporary (and subsequently damaging) abatement.

I would think that rather than enforce more suffering on a person, it may be ultimately safer to lead them to this knowledge, although I'm not idealistic enough to think that this is an easy option Absolutely, Kris. Quite often people become seriously addicted to drugs or/and alcohol because of earlier traumas or other stresses in their lives which have triggered underlying emotional difficulties that they haven't been able to deal with, or share with others.

[soydaykam]

Yes, and there can also sometimes be dangers to the community as well as to the addict's own life.

I've also worked with the children of addicts and seen first hand how it affects families.

Sometimes even potentially fatal ones that are not always apparent such as the spread of blood born diseases amongst IV drug users.

With regards to families, it brought up a couple of memories, I once went to see some friends who were cannabis smokers, they sold cannabis to supplement there welfare payments. My mate had split up from his partner and his little son had come to stay with him. Someone knocked on the door and the little boy ran up opened it and said calmly "not gone none". It made me think about things, very deeply at the time.

Another story - I heard this one from a friend who was addicted to opiates, it shocked even my mate who is a pretty hardened guy, he was always kind though, he'd feed people who were hungry and give people a bed for a night or two if they needed it. He was at someones house and a very young girl picked up a piece of used foil from smoking heroin she out it in her mouth and said "I'm having a toot toot" (tooting is an english drug slang term for smoking heroin).

Kris has a point. Some of us aren't is born into wisdom, the experiences of the child shape the adult, not that the actions of the adult are ok, just an inevitable consequences of the experience of the child. But sometimes and I'm speaking from my own new found understanding, all it really takes is a little kindness, nurturing and guidance coupled with a sincere desire to learn for those who are suffering to wake up and start to see things as they are.

Edit: There's a line from the film Drugstore Cowboy, it kind of relates to impermanence, I'm going to paraphrase it here as its been a long time since I've seen the film - "Most people don't know how they are goling to feel from one minute to the next - a drug addict knows exactly how they are going to feel from one minute to the next".

[Madjostok]

Following this interesting discussion may Hajurba recommend a very revealing book to those who are interested in all aspects of this theme?
No one will regret to read this! It is probably one of the best books that one can get! Even for folks who are unaware of the many aspects of suffering, heroin addiction, prison life and so on...they will hold their breath and can not stop to read it. (Mind you...this novel is a true story and has almost a thousand pages!) SHANTARAM