[WhileKelf]

I'm sure it's come up before, but I have never been quite clear on the answer to it.

As lay Buddhists, we should strive to observe the five precepts, the first of which is to refrain from killing human and non-human beings, to cause no harm to anyone or anything.

I want to know if there are exceptions to this?

The most extreme example is that if a madman comes at me with an axe, intent on killing me, I know for sure that I would throw the first precept out of the window and fight for my life, harming or killing my opponent in the process.

Fortunately, that does not happen every day, not to me at least.

Things that do happen more often are like, if a dog attacks me, or my family, or a complete stranger in my presence, I think I should intervene, causing harm in order to prevent other harm. Or if my home is threatened by a wasps' nest or invaded by stinging ants, does the first precept mean I should try to do nothing about it?

I know many Buddhists who eat the meat of slaughtered animals. That can't be done without causing them harm. I don't mean to begin a vegetarian debate here, I just wonder how many compromises can be made to the first precept, while striving to observe it.

[CathBraun]

I think that there is a very rational line between what killing is accpetable and which is not. Since we do not need to eat meat to survive, eating meat is a pleasure, and thus you are killing a living being for your own pleasure, which, according to Buddhas teachings, is wrong.

Now you may say "well Buddha ate meat" take this into consideration..

Buddha lived from 563–479 BC, in which time people still believed that it was necessary to eat meat to survive, and thus it would not be following The Middle Way to refrain from eating meat.

As has been said by others, if a living creature or being poses a threat towards you or another living being, then it is a suitable time to conclude that it is appropriate for the sake of survival that you take the life of that being.

I am not a scholar or a monk nor an experienced Buddhist, but please take this advice for what it is worth.

[Jeffery]

I've been a vegetarian for most of my life, therefore for me (and other healthy people I know) meat is not necessary.

[grizolsemn]

I may be off base here, but my recollection is that the Buddha's reasons for not forbidding his monks to eat meat had to do with the fact that they depended on alms. It can be ungracious to refuse somebody's gift of food on the grounds that it contains meat.

I might also qualify the statement "meat is not necessary". It's not necessary in Western consumer societies, that's for sure. Ask a Greenlander, though...

[giftbestcom]

I give up completely the intake of meat since a long time ago... to say... 20 years. Nothing wrong has happend. We evolve form apes and thus we do not evolve as carnivores. This has been demonstrated by the anatomy of our teeth and jaw apparatus.

Also I have a cat. It has never eaten meat nor commercial cat food. I share with it my veggie diet, seeds, cheese and milk. It is 12 years old and seems to be healthy, alert and slim. Meet is not needed for being healthy or for keeping a healthy diet.

I am not in a crusade against meat eaters. Sometimes, in the very improbable event, I ate meet when it is served at the table of people that do not know I do not eat meat, and I cook meat for my boyfriend from time to time for his personal delight.

[Saispapedlimi]

Mmmkay, so in my research in the Dhammapada, Buddha says

He who harms the harmless
Or hurts the innocent,
Ten times shall he fall -
Into torment or infirmity,
Injury or disease or madness,
Persecution or fearful accusation,
Loss of family, loss of fortune.
Fire from heaven shall strike his house
And when his body has been struck down,
He shall rise in hell. How I see this, is Buddha says very clearly, that if it is not hurting you to refrain from killing it, then doing so will result in severe punishment...

[Toossehew]

Don't follow rules dogmatically, learn the teaching and see how it sits with you, what it means to you. Buddhism is a personal path, not a set of rules.

[Mappaindy]

How I see this, is Buddha says very clearly, that if it is not hurting you to refrain from killing it, then doing so will result in severe punishment...

Hi BR

Some say the Dhammapada is a later collection of sayings which were put together but I don't know if that's true or not.

Kamma isn't a cosmic punishment system and the Buddha said kamma is intention.

If we have an intention to do something and then follow it through, there may be repercussions of some kind, but its not always certain.

I think if someone kills another being then there's a strong possibility of mental 'hell' afterwards. I know when I accidently killed a frog in the lawn mower I was really upset that I'd caused it such suffering and the sight of the poor frog came into my mind causing more guilt and sadness at various times afterwards.

[Lt_Apple]

Exactly, it isn't exactly punishment from any certain person for doing something wrong... it's your own mind that will betray you when you do something that is considered to be wrong.

[husartrof]

Exactly, it isn't exactly punishment from any certain person for doing something wrong... it's your own mind that will betray you when you do something that is considered to be wrong.

indeed, so

it is also the well-being of mind when you do something skilful and wholesome

the Buddha said:

And what is the diversity in kamma? There is kamma to be experienced in hell, kamma to be experienced in the realm of common animals, kamma to be experienced in the realm of the hungry ghosts, kamma to be experienced in the human world, kamma to be experienced in the world of the deities. This is called the diversity in kamma.

Nibbedhika Sutta: Penetrative

[unioneserry]

We evolve form apes and thus we do not evolve as carnivores.

What is that supposed to mean? Chimps kill large animals and eat them. Gorillas kill insects and eat them. That's how they get their vitamin B12, which is essential for survival. Humans can't get it from plant foods either, so they kill and eat things with legs too. They've been doing that for some 2000000 years now. Buddhism is 2500 years old. Humans have opposing thumbs which enables them to tear apart animals with their hands rather than teeth -- and just like the chimps they are tool users, i.e., they kill with spears and other things.

[Juersdodfs]

Don't follow rules dogmatically, learn the teaching and see how it sits with you, what it means to you. Buddhism is a personal path, not a set of rules.

This is my understanding also ... whichever tradition suits you best

[Arximedus]

What is that supposed to mean? Chimps kill large animals and eat them. Gorillas kill insects and eat them. That's how they get their vitamin B12, which is essential for survival. Humans can't get it from plant foods either, so they kill and eat things with legs too. They've been doing that for some 2000000 years now. Buddhism is 2500 years old. Humans have opposing thumbs which enables them to tear apart animals with their hands rather than teeth -- and just like the chimps they are tool users, i.e., they kill with spears and other things.

I have not discussed this before online in over 3 years of posting in Buddhist chat forums and your post has prompted me to comment, soundtrack !!!
I have been predominately vegan since 1985 and my daughter who is now 15 chose to become vegan at 10 years of age ( arguably due to my influence - though I am certain this is indirect as I have not any attachment nor aversion to others choice of diet and this is further evidenced as I have another child who has also lived with my husband and I since his birth in 2002 and neither of them abstain from eating red meat or animal products ).
Neither of us have required any Vitamin B12 supplements .
With her entry into puberty and my age, which means entering into the realms of menopause ! and with the associated increased demands both of us have been mindful and had mediacl monitoring with blood tests - we do eat well and enjoy cooking together though.

[PPActionnGuys]

B12 is stored in the body. Your daughter ate it for 10 years.

Just because you don't have a deficiency yet doesn't mean you won't have one eventually, or that others won't. My mom is a smoker and doesn't have cancer yet, does that make smoking natural?

This is just simple biology. I've been a vegan myself. I'm not shitting on anyone, and I still don't support the animal industry in any way. Just saying vegan mythology is flawed, and that ecology is more important than morality.

The Buddha got his B12 from meat. Hindu vegetarians get it from milk. Cows are sacred in India because cattle are worth more alive than dead. That's where "ahimsa" stems from. It's not about compassion, it's about property.

I know of at least one person in my area who were taken to the emergency for shots because she almost died from her vitamin B12 deficiency, by the way.

[Fellionas]

Cows are sacred in India because cattle are worth more alive than dead. That's where "ahimsa" stems from. It's not about compassion, it's about property.
Very interesting, I'd never seen it that way before.

[2puO4Rhf]

B12 is stored in the body. Your daughter ate it for 10 years.

Just because you don't have a deficiency yet doesn't mean you won't have one eventually, or that others won't. My mom is a smoker and doesn't have cancer yet, does that make smoking natural?

This is just simple biology. I've been a vegan myself. I'm not shitting on anyone, and I still don't support the animal industry in any way. Just saying vegan mythology is flawed, and that ecology is more important than morality.

The Buddha got his B12 from meat. Hindu vegetarians get it from milk. Cows are sacred in India because cattle are worth more alive than dead. That's where "ahimsa" stems from. It's not about compassion, it's about property.

I know of at least one person in my area who were taken to the emergency for shots because she almost died from her vitamin B12 deficiency, by the way.

The requirement for vitamin B12 is very low, however, it is needed for cell division and blood formation.
As you ahve identified, neither plants nor animals can make vitamin B12.
Bacteria are responsible for producing vitamin B12 and animals get their vitamin B12 from eating foods contaminated with vitamin B12 and then the animal becomes a source of vitamin B12.
Plant foods do not contain vitamin B12 except when they are contaminated by microorganisms or have vitamin B12 added to them. Thus, vegans need to look to fortified foods or supplements to get vitamin B12 in their diet.
My daughter and I, plus my son and hubby frequently due to it being the only milk left in our fridge) , have vitamin B12 fortified soymilk.
This was especially important for me when I was pregnant with both of my children ( in 1995 -96 and 2001- 02 ) and as for all lactating women ( I breatsfed my daughter for 12 months and my son for significantly longer - how much longer may distress some members so I will refrain from sharing ).
It is also recommended for vegan children to have reliable sources of vitamin B12 in their diets.
I do not strictly enquire about all ingredients which have gone into every item of food which I eat - my family and friends have come to know what I like and chose to eat - with all things though, people and relationships are more important to me than anything else.

[gactanync]

What is the motivation to be a Vegan? I understand why some people don't eat meat but I don't see the logic in not eating unfertilised eggs or milk. This is a genuine enquiry and not meant as criticism

[sasquatch999]

For me, living in Australia it is easy to eat a healthy, varied and enjoyable vegan diet - thus I do as I just like to .... in the same way that I like to cycle and walk. When we were overseas recently, my daughter and I ate more eggs and various cheeses ( many with rennet I am sure !! ) than I had in many years due to different circumstances. When I was pregnant I once felt a strong need for red meat and easily ate and digested it - it didn't happen again though thus I haven't.
My daughter rang me at work ( last year some time I think, so she would have been 14) to ask how to boil an egg - she truly didn't know, even though she is a good little cook and felt like eating one. Likewise she has had ice cream and gelati on occasions with friends.
Not sure if that helps answer the question, Karma.

[Z1IRo4Ap]

What is the motivation to be a Vegan? I understand why some people don't eat meat but I don't see the logic in not eating unfertilised eggs or milk. This is a genuine enquiry and not meant as criticism

namaste karma ,

some of my reasoning behind the choice to become vegan was ,,,,, as a long term vegetarian and seeing no need to cause needless suffering , I became aware that in order to produce an endless supply of cheap milk cows were kept in terible conditions , an average cow lives naturaly for around 20 years , the average dairy cow might live for 6 years before she is worn out , so being of no comercial use she is slaughtered if that isnt enough , she is artificialy inseminated as soon as she is able to carry , her calf is taken away from her which causes her great distress , if it is female it will be reared for the same torturous life as its mother , however if it is a boy ? veal and ham pie !after all the cow only gives milk after giving birth , as a nation we use so much milk , where do you put all the calves ?so that unfortunately means a large percentage meet an early death just to provide milk not nice so I gave it up !!!

eggs ? the conditions I saw chickens being kept in , was one of the reasons I becam vegetarian in the first place , and honey ? comercial producers remove the store of honey intended for rearing the young with sugar water , we eat their honey , the young of the hive get the cheap substitute to fallback on ...... is that fair ?

it is because of mass consumerism and the desire to manipulate nature for money its a big descision for some people , but it was a natural progression to me .

if you look to india where the largest proportion of the population was pure vegetarian , and holding the cow as sacred , the cow was kept for milk , but that milk was taken after the calf had naturaly suckeled , and was not torn away from the mother , saddly india is changing too , comercial gain is taking over from humanity , they are following our bad example

sorry not a very uplifting post , but unfortunately the truth of the matter , (and this is simply the tip of the iceberg )

namaskars ratikala

[Pa33anger]

Very interesting, I'd never seen it that way before.

"cows are sacred in india because they are worth more alive than dead , that is where ahimsa comes from , its not about compassion , its about property "

I am not even going to ask where this came from !

but simmply tell you that this statement is utter rubbish ,

the cow is most certainly sacred , unfortunately not to all of india as not all of india is hindu .

but to the hindu the cow is mother because of her kindness in sharing her milk , and of course she is beloved of krsna ( and many other reasons , too long to list )