[uncoosesoge]

I thought I would ask this question to my online friends.

A friend has been aware of having a problem with anger recently and was telling me of the hope that increased mindfulness would help them deal with this.

I suggested that awareness of the anger was only the first step and that mindfulness of angry thoughts, sensations, feelings and actions alone would not help. In fact just becoming aware could lead to stress, preoccupation and possibly guilt and other unskillful states arising if we do not do anything else.

In many Suttas very strong language, utilising terms like crushing, removing, eradicating is found in regards to dealing with
" defilements"/ unwholesome mental states.

Any thoughts or comments?

[Roorseprate]

Greetings,

My thoughts are that the Buddha taught the Noble Eightold Path rather than an Ignoble Onefold Path.

As per MN 117, right view, right effort, & right mindfulness should run & circle around right view. Right View is the forerunner.

Metta,
Retro.

[Eujacwta]

Yes, thank you Retro. Right view in this case seems to be accepting that the thoughts as she was describing them were natural and part of our human condition, that there was no need to stress out and that to notice as they arise was wise. I was encouraging her to see that this would not be enough in itself to get rid of them -also, given the situation she is in, it is likely that the very real irritants will get worse rather than better with time and some action was needed.

[arcalmanard]

I tend to agree. I haven't found a single, magic bullet that solves every problem that arises, but nurturing the 8 aspects of the Noble/Ennobling path in combination has been most helpful.

I tend to be wary of people or schools that promote a single idea or approach as a panacea, anyway.

[SweetCaroline]

Thanks FBM - the Path does not mean we seek to tolerate the intolerable, does it? I am not advocating righteous anger rather changing what we can.

[Jon Woodgate]

No, I don't think it means trying to tolerate the intolerable. That doesn't sound healthy. Neither does righteous anger. I can only speak for myself, of course, but when I find dissatisfaction, anger and so forth arising either too strongly or too often, I start with a review of my internal state(s). If possible, I try to solve the problem by adapting myself first, but that's not always possible. There are legitimate reasons for setting out to change one's environment.

[Fegemiembendy]

In many Suttas very strong language, utilising terms like crushing, removing, eradicating is found in regards to dealing with
" defilements"/ unwholesome mental states.

hi

as Retrofuturist skilfully pointed out, an important role of mindfulness is to bring wisdom to a situation

mindfulness is not merely awareness

about terms like "crushing", etc, the Buddha only mentioned these as a last resort and/or to be used with other methods

for example, in MN 19, the Buddha-To-Be overcome angry thoughts by reflecting on their harmfulness and their lack of benefit & peacefulness to oneself & others

or in MN 20, the first method recommended is to replace an unskilful thought with a skilful thought, just as a carpenter pulls out & replaces a bent nail with a straight nail

or MN 20 also includes the method of slowing down & quieting the (angry) gross thoughts by substituting them with more subtle thoughts, just as one would substitute running with walking, walking with standing, standing with sitting, sitting with lying down, etc

so, the last method can also be used as a mode of inquiry which investigates anger

i mention this last method because, just as "crushing" or "just being aware" of anger may not be productive, classifying all anger as "harmful, unhealthy & unbeneficial" may also not be productive because the anger may simply be an unskilful way of reacting to a skilful motivation or hope

for example, if anger is arising because of another's unwholesome behaviour at work or because of the unwholesome behaviour of one's partner, then the anger has "just cause" but it is also indicative of a lack of skill in relation to dealing with problems

thus, often, those prone to anger may need to develop:

(1) more wisdom skills in identifying the exact nature of social problems; and

(2) better communication skills in relation to addressing social problems

regards

element

[Imampaictjg]

Mindfulness helps because you are aware of anger rather than feeling that you are the anger and so are not quite so involved with it. waiting for anger and then trying to be mindful obviously would not work though, mindfulness needs to be practised for a long time to be of any real help in stressful situations.
I listened a Gil Fronsdal Dharma talk where he advised taking time to look at our motives for our actions, whats really driving us? I've found this helpful because as we start to understand whats going on within us we are not so compelled to act.

But waiting until the event to develop these things is like waiting until we crash the car to decide on taking driving lessons

[Preegovesem]

Ha Ha!

I was about to answer this question with a bit of a different approach, but it seems element has beat me to the punch of how I was going to respond!



I do think mindfulness is quite important. initially, we may become more aware as anger takes hold, for example. Also in terms of our response to situations it is quite important. We must constantly be vigilant and on guard towards our enemies: our affective emotions. But I feel that this may only help to contain things.

As element pointed out, we need to develop wisdom in order to cut through to the root of it all. We need to investigate this attachment we have to the so-called self, and the way we view things. Whether it be through inference, contemplation and meditation. Until we develop this wisdom, then we will always be at the mercy of our habitual tenancies and karma. We are constantly being fooled by appearances.

Terma

[WaydayNef]

I agree that our responses are definately our responsibility and that mindfulness involves more than awareness of " what " we are experiencing. The tendency to believe that if we try hard enough, communicate and change ourselves enough to accomadate those around us then we can keep things as they are and this is a good outcome is not always the best way forward - wisdom is often gained in hindsight and this may not be that hepful.

[herawaq]

Hi Andy,

Just 2 cents.

The OP asks:

Can mindfulness deal with all problems we face?

Seems that is asking if mindfulness in itself; IMO, No. The medicine of Buddha to be effective has three substances: Sila, Samadhi and Panna. If one is absent, the remedy will never cure Dukkha.

Kind wishes for your friend, Andy

[VIAGRAENLINOBARATOCAMPRAR]

IMO - Being Mindfull is one of the tools that we are able to use when faced with any situation to assist us in dealing with life in a more centered and peaceful way. so I would have to say "yes" simply due to the way that the question is posed in this thread. As with any tool it must be used correctly and with other of the tools that the Buddha has taught in a coherent logical way to achive a specific goal.

[zueqhbyhp]

My thoughts are that the Buddha taught the Noble Eightold Path rather than an Ignoble Onefold Path.

As per MN 117, right view, right effort, & right mindfulness should run & circle around right view. Right View is the forerunner.

And does that mean Right View with or without the asavas?

[PebydataFeents]

Hi Kaarine, this is how I see it too and as always thank you for expressing your goodwill.

From your posts Karma Yeshe and Lazy Eye, I see this one argument for mindfulness being " enough " - I for one can never be sure I am free from mental distortions which will impact on my ability to have Right View and to act.

[rarpAcconavox]

dear andy ,

just a simple thought ,

in the instance of any afflictive emotion,'transformation '
the best couse of action is to practice applying the 'antidote'practices ,

for 'attatchment or grasping' practice ' generousity'

for ' anger or malice' practice 'metta , loving kindness'

for 'ignorance ' practice ' accumulation of wisdom'

of course it is not allways easy to apply these antidote practices at the moment the afflictive emotoin has us in its grip , therefore it is wise to reflect well or meditate on each in rotation before the occurance of any uncomfortable situation , so that we might familiarise our selves with the benifit of each practice .

if we analise regularly our own tendancy towards an emotion like anger , we can mentaly transform it before it happens , this has to be the most positive action we can take .
we can allso apply all three antidote practices bringing wisdom and generosity into play helping us to work with the emotion that we are currently experiencing .

try allso applying a little love and generosity to the self who is experiencing the anger , thinking how wonderfull it would be to be free from such painfull emotions , your inate wisdom will tell you that you simply do not need to be making external situations more unbearable by adding afflictive emotions .

best wishes

namaskars ratikala

[UJRonald]

Thank you for sharing ratikala - a lovely reminder of the importance of mindfulness .... thanks everyone for particpating

[OnerePeepsy]

The monks in the Ajahn Chah Thai forest tradition, at least at Wat Sunan and Wat Nanachat, cultivate mindfulness through a meticulous focus on the Vinaya rules. The rules are very detailed, so that even just walking from one place to another - across a room or especially outside - can require focused attention. It is very effective in keeping one's mind in the here-and-now, in my experience.

Nevertheless, it has some limitations, I think. At Wat Sunan, they never gave me any meditation instruction other than to keep the Vinaya rules all the time. Also, they discouraged sutta study. As a result, I think, the experience was a bit off balance. I knew what to do well enough (I'd read the Vinaya before I went to Thailand), but not enough about what the Buddha taught. Reading suttas, for me at least, keeps the mind focused on the ultimate goal, and the encouragement and warnings in the suttas are great guides.

Mindfulness is essential, I think, but not sufficient without a solid education in the suttas.

For example: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit....070.than.html

"Monks who are arahants, whose mental fermentations are ended, who have reached fulfillment, done the task, laid down the burden, attained the true goal, totally destroyed the fetter of becoming, and who are released through right gnosis: I don't say of them that they have work to do with heedfulness. Why is that? They have done their task with heedfulness. They are incapable of being heedless. But as for monks in higher training, who have not yet reached their hearts' goal, who still aspire for the unexcelled freedom from bondage: I say of them that they have a task to do with heedfulness. Why is that? [I think:] 'Perhaps these venerable ones, when making use of suitable resting places, associating with admirable friends, balancing their [mental] faculties,[3] will reach & remain in the supreme goal of the holy life for which clansmen rightly go forth from home into homelessness, knowing & realizing it for themselves in the here & now.' Envisioning this fruit of heedfulness for these monks, I say that they have a task to do with heedfulness.

"Monks, there are these seven individuals to be found in the world. Which seven? One [released] both ways, one released through discernment, a bodily witness, one attained to view, one released through conviction, a Dhamma-follower, and a conviction-follower.

"And what is the individual [released] both ways? There is the case where a certain individual remains touching with his body those peaceful liberations that transcend form, that are formless, and — having seen with discernment — his fermentations are ended. This is called an individual [released] both ways.[4] Regarding this monk, I do not say that he has a task to do with heedfulness. Why is that? He has done his task with heedfulness. He is incapable of being heedless.

"And what is the individual released through discernment? There is the case where a certain individual does not remain touching with his body those peaceful liberations that transcend form, that are formless, but — having seen with discernment — his fermentations are ended. This is called an individual who is released through discernment.[5] Regarding this monk, I do not say that he has a task to do with heedfulness. Why is that? He has done his task with heedfulness. He is incapable of being heedless.

"And what is the individual who is a bodily witness? There is the case where a certain individual remains touching with his body those peaceful liberations that transcend form, that are formless, and — having seen with discernment — some of his fermentations are ended. This is called an individual who is a bodily witness.[6] Regarding this monk, I say that he has a task to do with heedfulness. Why is that? [I think:] 'Perhaps this venerable one, when making use of suitable resting places, associating with admirable friends, balancing his [mental] faculties, will reach & remain in the supreme goal of the holy life for which clansmen rightly go forth from home into homelessness, knowing & realizing it for himself in the here & now.' Envisioning this fruit of heedfulness for this monk, I say that he has a task to do with heedfulness.

"And what is the individual attained to view? There is the case where a certain individual does not remain touching with his body those peaceful liberations that transcend form, that are formless, but — having seen with discernment — some of his fermentations are ended, and he has reviewed & examined with discernment the qualities (or: teachings) proclaimed by the Tathagata. This is called an individual who is attained to view.[7] Regarding this monk, I say that he has a task to do with heedfulness. Why is that? [I think:] 'Perhaps this venerable one, when making use of suitable resting places, associating with admirable friends, balancing his [mental] faculties, will reach & remain in the supreme goal of the holy life for which clansmen rightly go forth from home into homelessness, knowing & realizing it for himself in the here & now.' Envisioning this fruit of heedfulness for this monk, I say that he has a task to do with heedfulness.

"And what is the individual released through conviction? There is the case where a certain individual does not remain touching with his body those peaceful liberations that transcend form, that are formless, but — having seen with discernment — some of his fermentations are ended, and his conviction in the Tathagata is settled, rooted, and established. This is called an individual who is released through conviction.[8] Regarding this monk, I say that he has a task to do with heedfulness. Why is that? [I think:] 'Perhaps this venerable one, when making use of suitable resting places, associating with admirable friends, balancing his [mental] faculties, will reach & remain in the supreme goal of the holy life for which clansmen rightly go forth from home into homelessness, knowing & realizing it for himself in the here & now.' Envisioning this fruit of heedfulness for this monk, I say that he has a task to do with heedfulness.

"And what is the individual who is a Dhamma-follower? There is the case where a certain individual does not remain touching with his body those peaceful liberations that transcend form, that are formless, nor — having seen with discernment — are his fermentations ended. But with a [sufficient] measure of reflection through discernment he has come to an agreement with the teachings proclaimed by the Tathagata. And he has these qualities: the faculty of conviction, the faculty of persistence, the faculty of mindfulness, the faculty of concentration, & the faculty of discernment. This is called an individual who is a Dhamma-follower.[9] Regarding this monk, I say that he has a task to do with heedfulness. Why is that? [I think:] 'Perhaps this venerable one, when making use of suitable resting places, associating with admirable friends, balancing his [mental] faculties, will reach & remain in the supreme goal of the holy life for which clansmen rightly go forth from home into homelessness, knowing & realizing it for himself in the here & now.' Envisioning this fruit of heedfulness for this monk, I say that he has a task to do with heedfulness.

"And what is the individual who is a conviction-follower? There is the case where a certain individual does not remain touching with his body those peaceful liberations that transcend form, that are formless, nor — having seen with discernment — are his fermentations ended. But he has a [sufficient] measure of conviction in & love for the Tathagata. And he has these qualities: the faculty of conviction, the faculty of persistence, the faculty of mindfulness, the faculty of concentration, & the faculty of discernment. This is called an individual who is a conviction-follower. Regarding this monk, I say that he has a task to do with heedfulness. Why is that? [I think:] 'Perhaps this venerable one, when making use of suitable resting places, associating with admirable friends, balancing his [mental] faculties, will reach & remain in the supreme goal of the holy life for which clansmen rightly go forth from home into homelessness, knowing & realizing it for himself in the here & now.' Envisioning this fruit of heedfulness for this monk, I say that he has a task to do with heedfulness.

"Monks, I do not say that the attainment of gnosis is all at once. Rather, the attainment of gnosis is after gradual training, gradual action, gradual practice. And how is there the attainment of gnosis after gradual training, gradual action, gradual practice? There is the case where, when conviction has arisen, one visits [a teacher]. Having visited, one grows close. Having grown close, one lends ear. Having lent ear, one hears the Dhamma. Having heard the Dhamma, one remembers it. Remembering, one penetrates the meaning of the teachings. Penetrating the meaning, one comes to an agreement through pondering the teachings. There being an agreement through pondering the teachings, desire arises. When desire has arisen, one is willing. When one is willing, one contemplates. Having contemplated, one makes an exertion. Having made an exertion, one realizes with the body the ultimate truth and, having penetrated it with discernment, sees it.[10]

[outsitWrord]

Greetings Lazy Eye,

And does that mean Right View with or without the asavas?

It's a little inconclusive from Thanissaro Bhikkhu's translation (which is all I have available to me just now), but it's either the latter or both.

Either way, it's good advice from the Blessed One, worth following.

Metta,
Retro.

[Clilmence]

Greetings Lazy Eye,

And does that mean Right View with or without the asavas?

I trust Retrofuturist will not mind me adding to the answers to your question.

The Right View with avasa also means the moral right view that remains not free of 'self-views'.

For example, "we" recognise and are grateful to "our" benefactors, such as our mother & father, our teachers, our employers, our employees, our co-workers, our friends, our environment, etc, by acknowledging what has been given, offered & sacrificed by "them" to "us". This right view is that of 'inter-being'. As 'self-views' remain in such a (wholesome) right view, it is right view with asava.

Similarly, it is right view that from "my" doing good karma, "I" will gain a good result and from "my" doing bad karma, "I" will gain a bad result. As 'self-views' remain in such a (wholesome) right view, it right view with asava .

The asava are three-fold, namely, the asava of sensuality, the asava of becoming ('self-views') and the asava of ignorance.

Please bear in mind, in MN 60, the Buddha encouraged the householder to possess & adhere to such a right view.

Regards

Element

And what is the right view that has effluents (asava), sides with merit & results in acquisitions? 'There is what is given, what is offered, what is sacrificed. There are fruits & results of good & bad actions. There is this world & the other worlds. There is mother & father. There are spontaneously born beings; there are priests & contemplatives who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the others after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is the right view that has effluents, sides with merit & results in acquisitions.

MN 117 Now, householders, of those brahmans & contemplatives who hold this doctrine, hold this view — 'There is what is given, what is offered, what is sacrificed. There are fruits & results of good & bad actions. There is this world & the other worlds. There is mother & father. There are spontaneously born beings; there are priests & contemplatives who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the others after having directly known & realized it for themselves' — it can be expected that, shunning these three unskillful activities — bad bodily conduct, bad verbal conduct, bad mental conduct — they will adopt & practice these three skillful activities: good bodily conduct, good verbal conduct, good mental conduct. Why is that? Because those venerable brahmans & contemplatives see in unskillful activities the drawbacks, the degradation and the defilement; and in skillful activities the rewards of renunciation, resembling cleansing.

MN 60