[HartOvara]

All is mindfulness? or perhaps everything has to be done with mindfulness. If so, then, why the need of rituals?

exactly! and why not have rituals? The rituals are not the problem. It is our relationship with them that is. If you don't attach to them, then it is no problem. Simple, really.

[Longwow]

My seeing that such things are irrelevant to my practice isn't having aversion, Keith ! lol !

Sure, but seeing rituals as a "problem" is, well a problem.

[Dilangos]

why not have rituals?

Have them if you need them Keith.

[Sliliashdes]

if rituals cause a problem, then don't do them. But, in and of themselves, they are neutral, imho

[st01en_lox]

Have them if you need them Keith.

Need has nothing to do with it.

[FreeOEMcheapestPHOTOSHOP]

Need has nothing to do with it.

What then has to do with rituals Keith?

[karkinadze]

Sure, but seeing rituals as a "problem" is, well a problem.

....and so is continuing papanca, lol !

[induffike]

ah, the "papanca" card!

[Frdsdx26]

ah, the "papanca" card!

Yes, and here it is !

[Battwenue]

Yes, and here it is !

Well, I would quibble with it's usage here, but accept it in good humor!

regards,
Keith

[PypeMaypetasy]

So what is it about folks' ambivalence and non-attachment toward rituals, Keith, that makes you so sad and causes you to characterize them as if THEY were the ones with a "problem"...?

[TiepayWrary]

So what is it about folks' abmivalence and non-attacment toward ritual, Keith, that makes you so sad and causes you to characterize them as if THEY were the ones with a "problem"...?

I was just pointing out that it goes both ways. Ritual, no rituals, it's possible to be attached to either idea. The rituals, or lack thereof doesn't really matter, imho.

For the record, I don't think anyone here has a "problem" that's any different from the one we all have, which is dukkha. Just talking, that's all.

[viagsjicguara]

if rituals cause a problem, then don't do them. But, in and of themselves, they are neutral, imho

In my experience this is the way it is - but then I enjoy opera - lol .... I really do.

[Grainiary]

In my experience this is the way it is - but then I enjoy opera - lol .... I really do.

shhh....

[ultimda horaf]

I was just pointing out that it goes both ways. Ritual, no rituals, it's possible to be attached to either idea. The rituals, or lack thereof doesn't really matter, imho.

For the record, I don't think anyone here has a "problem" that's any different from the one we all have, which is dukkha. Just talking, that's all.

But you just said:

Sure, but seeing rituals as a "problem" is, well a problem.

...and:

Yes, exactly. The aversion to rites and rituals could be thought of something to let go of.

And no one here has said anything about "a problem" but you. So again, what is it about ambivalence and non-attachment to ritual(s) that makes you so sad that you feel compelled to raise this straw man of folks "having a problem" with, or having "aversion" to them, and talk about them as if THEY were the ones with the problem?

[antonyandruleit]

But you just said:



...and:




And no one here has said anything about "a problem" but you. So again, what is it about ambivalence and non-attachment to ritual(s) that makes you so sad that you feel compelled to raise this straw man of folks "having a problem" with, or having "aversion" to them, and talk about them as if THEY were the ones with the problem?

Hello Stuka,

Sorry if I have caused some confusion. There is no problem with rituals, nor is there a problem with ambivalence and non-attachment to rituals. They are neutral. We make the problem, either way.

And going forward, since our entanglements seem to always result in threads being locked, I won't be responding to any more of your posts. I bear at least half of the responsibility for the thread closures and do not wish to contribute to that anymore. If my posts cause you vexations, please feel free to ignore them. You may rest assured that I will read what you have to say and take it in under consideration. But, it is painfully apparent that we are unable to communicate in a civil manner.

Regards,
Keith

[85IbLcwQ]

Keith, I think that the problem is in communication. Often I have read statements which report that repeating a certain chant, making offerings, flowers and incense will gain you merit. Also it is certainly possible to know everything about ritual and nothing about the real heart of Buddhism.
When I first began investigating the rituals I was not told that and I have not found that there is any magic power bowing to an altar, making offerings or lighting candles and incense. In performing a ritual there is no " force " outside which I am willing or seeking to come to my aid and give me empowerment or move me toawrds enlightenment. Maturity and growth is not something that can be possessed, not something that can be given to you.

[Sydaycymn]

Hello Stuka,

Sorry if I have caused some confusion.

But you didn't cause any confusion at all. You were clear that you think that folks who aren't attached to ritual, and who say so, have a problem.


There is no problem with rituals, nor is there a problem with ambivalence and non-attachment to rituals. They are neutral. We make the problem, either way. If you think that is so, then what made you claim to be so sad about it?


And going forward, since our entanglements seem to always result in threads being locked, I won't be responding to any more of your posts. I bear at least half of the responsibility for the thread closures and do not wish to contribute to that anymore. If my posts cause you vexations, please feel free to ignore them. And who said that they "cause me vexations"? Again there is this same expressed presumption of others being the ones with the problem. The technical term for it is "passive aggression".


You may rest assured that I will read what you have to say and take it in under consideration. Oh, goody.


But, it is painfully apparent that we are unable to communicate in a civil manner. Again, who is this "we"...? Pointing fingers is not a part of taking responsibility.

And it is kind of silly to cast this as a dispute between you and myself. It was Kaarine and A-D that you were characterizing as "having a problem" and "aversion". And they called you on it, too.

[Equackasous]

Keith, I think that the problem is in communication. Often I have read statements like repeating a certain chant, making offerings, flowers and incense will gain you merit. Also it is certainly possible to know everything about ritual and nothing about the real heart of Buddhism.
When I first began investigating the rituals I was not told that and I have not found that there is any magic power bowing to an altar, making offerings or lighting candles and incense. In performing a ritual there is no " force " outside which I am willing or seeking to come to my aid and give me empowerment or move me toawrds enlightenment. Maturity and growth is not something that can be possessed, not something that can be given to you.

I do not recall anyone in this thread voicing an opinion that attachment to rites and rituals is due to a belief that they have any "magical" effect.

[Geetiill]

I can speak only for my experiences here in Korea and in Thailand, but there is a common belief here and there among the laity that participatimg in rites and rituals bring good luck and meritorious blessings. People pay lots of $$ to have their new cars and businesses ritually blessed by monks.