[Bromikka]

Dear friends,

This thread is a spin-off from the superstition one. Athough my Gombrich reference is a quote from a talk relating to Theravada Buddhism, I think we could widen the issues addressed in this post to not only address different aspects of rituals and ceremonies in Theravada but to discuss it in relation to all Buddhist traditions.


Ok, here's what Ajahn Buddhadasa said in 'Handbook for Mankind':


As we have said, Buddhism is a practical method for liberating oneself from suffering by means of coming to realize as did the Buddha himself, the true nature of things. Now any religious text is bound to contain material which later people have found occasion to add to, and our Tipitaka is no exception.

People in later ages have added sections based on then current ideas, either in order to boost people's confidence or out of excessive religious zeal. Regrettably even the rites and rituals which have developed and become mixed in with the religion are now accepted and recognized as Buddhism proper.

Ceremonies, such as setting up trays of sweets and fruit as offerings to the "soul" of the Buddha in the same way as alms food is offered to a monk just do not fit in with Buddhist principles. Yet some groups consider this to be genuine Buddhist practice, teaching it as such and keeping to it very strictly.

Rites and ceremonies of this kind have become so numerous that they now completely obscure the real Buddhism and its original purpose.


http://www.buddhanet.net/budasa4.htm
Here's an excerpt from Professor Richard Gombrich in page 2 of 'Comfort or Challenge'- an address given at the end of last year for the International Conference on the Dissemination of Theravada Buddhism:

The Buddhism which measures action by ritual and custom can never
spread anywhere: it is just like the brahminism which the Buddha set out to
criticise, which has never been and never will be adopted by any other
society than the one where it started.

My venerable friends, this is the very heart and gist of my message today. I
am begging you to give up obsession with ritual and custom, to follow the
Buddha’s teaching about ethical intention, and thus bring his message to the
world.
http://www.ocbs.org/index.php?option...ive&Itemid=121

[fluoxet]

Thanks for that, Aloka-D. Gombrich in some of his other works goes into detail how the Buddha's teachings were cast specifically to oppose the 'salvation by ritual duty' inherent in the brahminism that he so often faced. For example, Gombrich explains how kamma to the brahmins meant fulfilling one's rituals properly, regardless of one's mental state. The Buddha took their own word and turned it around to mean that the mental state of volition driving the act is more important than the act.

And then there's attachment/clinging to rites and rituals as the third fetter preventing accomplishment, of course.

[Buincchotourbss]

Absolutely agree with Ajahn Buddhadasa. Into what many people really get hooked is to rites and rituals. Those give the sense of "something" happening by real which is at the root of superstitious thought and thus the path to religion and believes. Rites and Rituals are not needed, nor asked to be performed by the historical Buddha but in a world needed of a "given" meaning (by a guru, school, tradition), not being able to look at it by our own means, rites and rituals seem to endure, still, for some more time between us.

But it is not just about religious believe. Rites and Rituals are everywhere. The modern advanced technological culture of the westernized mind has, too, a sort of rites and rituals all the time. It is a tribal heritage. We have rites and rituals also when someone has won a prize or has reached a further academic level. It is the endlessly wandering of mind craving for becoming.

[mypharmalife]

Those give the sense of "something" happening

Yes, one can get a sensation of temporary euphoria which is later followed by the thoughts that one must have done something significant and beneficial. One is also anticipating something special in the build-up beforehand, because one has been told that it's very special.

[MADwanker]

I found this short video about rites and rituals (made in 1997)

[h4z1XBI7]

Great speech Aloka. I take the "tree, branches and core" simile given by the first Bhikkhu.

[Domovoy]

Absolutely agree with Ajahn Buddhadasa. Into what many people really get hooked is to rites and rituals. Those give the sense of "something" happening by real which is at the root of superstitious thought and thus the path to religion and believes. Rites and Rituals are not needed, nor asked to be performed by the historical Buddha but in a world needed of a "given" meaning (by a guru, school, tradition), not being able to look at it by our own means, rites and rituals seem to endure, still, for some more time between us.

But it is not just about religious believe. Rites and Rituals are everywhere. The modern advanced technological culture of the westernized mind has, too, a sort of rites and rituals all the time. It is a tribal heritage. We have rites and rituals also when someone has won a prize or has reached a further academic level. It is the endlessly wandering of mind craving for becoming.

Interesting thread.

This describes what encountering these rituals would be like for a newcomer. For folks who have done it for awhile, it becomes old hat, imho. Someone hits the five minute moktak, time to practice. Not special.

There is a kong an from the Wu-men Kuan (case 16) that addresses our rituals quite well:

Yun-men said, "See how vast and wide the world is! Why do you put on your seven -piece robe at the sound of the bell?" The answer is quite elegant!

Like everything, the ritual and rites aren't what is important, it is our relationship to them that is.

[vesiasmepay]

That's it, isn't it Keith? .... most of the ritual and the rites which I have been involved in over the years have had a beneficial effect to my practice and relationships.

[Luisabens]

Most of the rites and rituals I've been involved with myself have had nothing to do with my practice other than give me a temporary state of euphoria and the mistaken notion that it was somehow benefiting me (having been told that beforehand)

[Qnnoshxj]

Hello Andy,

Yes, I feel the same way, but at the same time I think it is a bit like brushing my teeth. No big deal, just something I do. I enjoy chanting with my Sangha friends and feel in some way buoyed by it. But it isn't a one hundred percent necessity.

[MikeGotTalentz]

Most of the rites and rituals I've been involved with myself have had nothing to do with my practice other than give me a temporary state of euphoria and the mistaken notion that it was somehow benefiting me (having been told that beforehand)

Sure Aloka, and the video at # 5 gives us an excellent approach about that "need" for rituals. After a while, as told by the second Bhikkhu in the video, the real thing about them becomes quite evident. Nothing more than a added stuff of secondary importance.

[Frdsdx26]

Sure Aloka, and the video at # 5 gives us an excellent approach about that "need" for rituals. After a while, as told by the second Bhikkhu in the video, the real thing about them becomes quite evident. Nothing more than a added stuff of secondary importance.

This saddens me a bit. It seems to me it is all mindfullness. I never feel much different whether chanting, bowing, walking or sitting. It's all just practice, just like the drive home from formal practice.

[steansathtpos]

I love rituals. My favorite is to repeat the Infinite Mantra of Perfect Enlightenment ten thousand times before I get up each morning -- I prostate myself each time before a photo of the Great Golden Snow Wombat, and repeat with each prostation the Sacred Words, "O Wah Ta Gu,Siam!".


Ten thousand times before breakfast each day. Nirvana, here I come...

[TineSeign]

I love rituals. My favorite is to repeat the Infinite Mantra of Perfect Enlightenment ten thousand times before I get up each morning -- I prostate myself each time before a photo of the Great Golden Snow Wombat, and repeat with each prostation the Sacred Words, "O Wah Ta Gu,Siam!".


Ten thousand times before breakfast each day. Nirvana, here I come...

[VIAGRA-VIAGRA]

This saddens me a bit.

What's to be sad about?

[xqkAY7Lg]

This saddens me a bit Surely that's because of clinging to something that needs to be let go of ?

[nmnrIjGB]

I liked the term in the video: "psychic irritants"

[YTmWSOA5]

Surely that's because of clinging to something that needs to be let go of ?

Yes, exactly. The aversion to rites and rituals could be thought of something to let go of.

[iodigmaFemZem]

It seems to me it is all mindfullness.

All is mindfulness? or perhaps everything has to be done with mindfulness. If so, then, why the need of rituals?

[padlabtard]

Yes, exactly. The aversion to rites and rituals could be thought of something to let go of.

My seeing that such things are irrelevant to my practice isn't having aversion, Keith ! lol !