[Knongargoapex]

Hey guys, I have been having a little trouble with the concept of impermanence so help is appreciated. I get how feelings, perceptions, consciousness, and mind-objects are impermanent, I can see that through meditation. But it is hard for me to see the impermanence of matter. I mean on a large scale I can see that form changes all the time, but what about atoms, don't they last forever? Someone please help shed some light, or maybe even some advice so I can help let go of this. Its another hinderance to my meditation. Thanks!

[Sawyer]

Once it gets too small to see, it is "beyond range"

[SinyugiN]

Beyond range?

[gennick]

Your dilemma was answered here:

http://www.buddhismwithoutboundaries...-dilemma/page3

i would keep it stretching further to say that there are no atoms, no subatomic particles, no quarks, gluons,positrons, photons, bosons and so on. the question for me is not only about disintegration into finer particles and hence the establishment of emptiness based on that but also (and primarily so) the question of the very existence of any particle no matter or how small or fundamental or ultimate.

the theory of emptiness will dismiss the possibility of any such fundamental particle, be it atom or wind or earth or fire in its ultimate essence. even the most minute particle wont be partless as it will have upper, lower, left, right etc parts but owing to not only its aggregatory character, but also upon dependence of the perceiving subject or other intervening medium, its identity is actualised.

if we are to analyse anything, it will fail to exist or maintain its identity on its own. a dog will not appreciate the colour of grass as green like we do being colour blind and so there are two dependent realities of the same entity. we cannot say this is the ultimate colour of grass. of course at night it will appear black to both irrespective of the species difference depending upon the intervening medium of light. but if we are to investigate at what is causing the difference, difference in retina will vanish once we analyse retina in the ultimate sense, photons will vanish once we analyse for the essence of photon or light and so on, essence or true self lacking in every thing.

your thoughts.......

[Averti$ingGuru]

Hey guys, I have been having a little trouble with the concept of impermanence so help is appreciated. I get how feelings, perceptions, consciousness, and mind-objects are impermanent, I can see that through meditation. But it is hard for me to see the impermanence of matter. I mean on a large scale I can see that form changes all the time, but what about atoms, don't they last forever? Someone please help shed some light, or maybe even some advice so I can help let go of this. Its another hinderance to my meditation. Thanks!

Hi sonofzeus,

One fairly simple way is to modify the time scale at which you are looking. If you are looking at the moment to moment impermanence then it may be difficult to have success. However, if you increase the time scale to months, years, decades, then the impermanence becomes obvious. Depending where you live, if the maintenance is not kept up, then impermanence becomes very obvious. Basically solid objects have longer periods of impermanence, whereas liquid and gaseous have shorter periods of impermanence.

Without prior cultivation it is very difficult to see the momentary impermanence of solid matter. For one thing, direct perception is filtered by your belief system. Possibly you could try the meditation that is called wall gazing, maybe you can pick up the impermanence there. It depends on the stability of your tranquillity, if you try a narrow focus (such as a fixed point on a wall) you will likely find your senses or mind moving away from the object of meditation. If this is the case you could try a rational approach.

One way is a scientific approach to the issue of impermanence. According to science the wall is made of atoms and the majority of the atom's volume consists of an electron cloud. This electron cloud is mostly space and continually moving, so how does this matter made up of mostly space end up being a solid wall?

Hope this helps somewhat,

Cheers, WK

[derty]

Atoms do not exist in any permanent configuration - it is compounded matter which is impermanent. atoms are continually re-positioning themselves with other atoms thus producing different molecules - impermanent phenomena. But atoms themselves are also compounded phenomena being as they are made up of a nucleus and electrons - so they too are impermanent. Scientists have discovered that rather than atoms, matter can be shown to consist of packages of energy, which because they are interdependent can also be regarded as impermanent.

[ResistNewWorldOrder]

Matter is said to arise from energy and what is energy?

[dogdesign]

Energy is basically movement within space or void. Nobody knows why movement exists and it appears not to exist unless it is being observed. There seems to require a subject and an object for energy - in the form of the five elements - to exist. This I think is the reasoning behid karma - this movement, which conceives form from emptiness and leads to the notion of impermanence.

Of course in reality there is no coming and going, arising and ceasing but a simple suchness of emptiness which is form and form which is emptiness.

[HowardtheDuck]

Nobody knows why movement exists and it appears not to exist unless it is being observed.

A bit like me, I hardly move unless the wife's standing over me.

Good point though and food for thought.

[pepBarihepe]

Matter is said to arise from energy and what is energy?

E = mC2

Energy is not condensed matter... the fate of energy is to become heat at the end of any process. Heat is useless energy which dissipates.

[Michmant]

This I think is the reasoning behid karma - this movement, which conceives form from emptiness and leads to the notion of impermanence.

LOL confirmation bias rears its ugly haid...here is the conclusion: what data can we point to, to support it?

Of course in reality there is no coming and going, arising and ceasing but a simple suchness of emptiness which is form and form which is emptiness. Have some nice mahayana dressing with that word salad.