[TOPERink]

Hi All,

I was wondering if anyone would like to comment on the Ajahn Buddhadasa extract below. Do you agree or disagree?




Teachers Are Prison

Now we come to the prison called "ajahn" (teacher, master, guru), the famous teachers whose names reverberate afar. In Burma there's "Sayadaw This," in Sri Lanka there's "Bhante That," in Tibet there's "Lama So- and -so," in China there's "Master Whoever."

Every place has its famous teacher whose name is bouncing around. Whether national, regional, provincial, or local, every place has got its Big Guru. Then people cling and attach to their teachers as being the only teacher who is correct; their teacher is right and all other teachers are completely wrong. They refuse to listen to other people's teachers. And they don't think about or examine the teachings of their own Ajahns.

They get caught in the "Teacher Prison." They turn the teacher into a prison, then get caught in it. It's an attachment which is truly ridiculous. Whether a big teacher or a small teacher, it's upadana (clinging, attachment) just the same. They keep building prisons out of their teachers and gurus. Please don't get caught in even this prison.

(from 'The Prison of Life' by Ajahn Buddhadasa)

http://www.suanmokkh.org/archive/arts/ret/prison1.htm

[xqdrocherz]

i agree. attachment is attachment. "attach yourself to absolutely nothing" (buddhadasa)

[Adimondin]

They turn the teacher into a prison

And, often, this is not what the teacher wants, although I'm sure teachers who discourage independent thinking exist. From my current limited knowledge, the Budhha made it clear he did not wish - and discouraged - this sort of blind acceptance of his teachings. Although "the best teacher is the one who teaches you to investigate and learn on your own" is a cliche, I believe it is true. That said, not all students will be inclined, and some may not be able to, strike out on their own - I'm not being elitist here, facts are facts - we're not all blessed with the same intellect and a lot of the ideas discussed here are challenging.

Sorry, I guess I'm off topic again.

[Pszinygv]

i think the 2nd noble truth and the kalama sutta are relevant here.

[corolaelwis]

I'm sure teachers who discourage independent thinking exist.

Yes, I agree here.

But I agree too with "Teachers Are a Prison" where teacher and student, both, build up the jail. Some teachers love to have their followers, or his/her personal follower, that worship them as the embodiment of absolute truth and where any word spell by he/she is a revealed truth; frequently we found they surrounded by "students" that more than that are followers who need to be given the spoonfed knowledge.

[fissasste]

teacher and student, both, build up the jail

I wonder how often such behavior is related to the fact that conformity is more comfortable than otherwise. It takes a bit of courage, and maybe a bit of a sense of guilt, to get "out of the box" that the student and teacher have created. I was a bit older than my fellow students when I attended undergraduate school and I noticed that most students avoided questioning what had been taught (say, in the humanities, interpretation of literature, etc). That's not to say that I felt totally comfortable questioning but I did it more often than my fellow students - and got myself into trouble at times. It took some time before I was able to critically look at some of the ideas that were being taught without thinking I was probably wrong and some sort of wierdo - and such questioning was associated with a bit of discomfort.

Have you ever noticed how similar the words "conform" and "comfort" are?


Just some musings.

[Jambjanatan]

It takes a bit of courage,

I have been a teacher for almost 20 years giving from high school to university. Now I work with Adults with the non-formal education approach and I have ever stimulated the kind of student that gets "out of the box"; also I am really enthusiastic when one or two of them show that quality. The students which I have most enjoyed are the ones of the Preparatory level (the three years before reaching the University). They are in the period where they think they know everything and like to argue and ague and argue with the teacher.

I use the Socrates's "Mayeutica" now known as Critical Reflexion or Reflective Meditation or Transformational Learning. It has proved to be really encouraging so to start reasoning about things and to be insightfull for those students that like to argue about anything and try to be out of the box. It is a wonderfull experience to be out of the box with the few of them. The "aha!" moment through that is really wonderful. They discover that a teacher is someone that helps to bring out something that is known in some way and not an authority or a kind of person to be worshiped. So they found in a teacher just a teacher that soon will be outdated and neither an authority nor a guru that looks and acts as if he knows everything.

But the main part of them prefer the teacher to give the knowledge digested by him and not the effort and challenge that means to get knowledge out to light.

Have you ever noticed how similar the words "conform" and "comfort" are?

To bring out knowledge is similar as to be in labor. It is hard and painfull but at the end is a joyfull experience. Most of them do not like to go through that, and its OK, no big deal.

[allachakb]

I think its worthwhile noting that Ajahn Buddasadasa was refering to Dhamma teachers/gurus rather than teachers in the ordinary sense.

My question was intended to be about Dhamma teachers functioning within the different Buddhist traditions and was not meant to be about teaching within educational or other systems.

Thanks

[JennyStewarta]

to Dhamma teachers

The teacher we have at the dojo, the Roshi, is the kind of teacher that do not becomes "the prison" expoused in the given quote. He encourages us to go thorough our own learning. Some of the sangha members have leave the tradition because they have not found the kind of teacher that gives interpretations about everything but encourages them never telling what to do about. Just to evaluate your experience in zazen and in zazen brought to daily life. He also has encouraged me to look thoroughly at the Pali Canon even when we have our particular Soto teachings.

Fortunately I have not found that closeness that I think sometimes happens with some teachers taken as gurus or absolute truth embodiments. The experience at the dojo with the Roshi is similar at the one I had as a teacher. That is why I gave this expample to plogsties.

[2swasseneons]

The experience at the dojo with the Roshi is similar at the one I had as a teacher. That is why I gave this expample to plogsties.

Sure Kaarine dear, - but just checking in to make sure that we don't start going off at a tangent away from the original topic !

[santorio]

but just checking in to make sure that we don't start going off at a tangent away from the original topic !

Yes, sorry Aloka... sometimes the enthusiasm makes me diverge from the central idea through the thread...

[Dpkefsuf]

i think the 2nd noble truth and the kalama sutta are relevant here.

Could you explain what you mean in a little more detail, please inji ?

[vipdumpp]

Yes, this is an important issue I think. Whereas on one hand it is great (and maybe even nessecary) to have a good reliance upon and devotion towards one's guru many people can fall into the trap that was mentioned in the article.

I think teachers with some realization do know where people's thoughts and intentions are coming from and are not easily fooled. My own teacher will sometimes give a not so subtle reminder to students in this fashion by saying "stop being so mundane!"


A lot of people like to say that they have the best teacher or the best method or whatever, and this is unfortunate. One has to understand for themselves the real reason why they consider someone as their teacher. Is it for mundane worldly reasons, such as the teachers fame, prestige, or popularity? Or is it because they resonate with us, and we trust that they can truly help us along our path and that their teachings and methods can help us to cultivate our wisdom?

I think people in the first category tend to jump around from teacher to teacher while never settling on one or on a specific method. They seem to go round and round in circles and at that point they need to question their motivation.

[wrbwrbwrb]

start going off at a tangent

Going off topic was probably my fault. Sorry - and I'll try to refrain from doing so.

Would it be permissible to have a category for such related but off-topic discussions that are of interest in a general way?

[Zpxbawtz]

Would it be permissible to have a category for such related but off-topic discussions that are of interest in a general way?

Hi Plogsties,

I think I've mentioned before, that everyone is always most welcome to start new topics which are spin-offs from a main discussion (and new topics in general) in whichever forum is suitable for them. If they're not about Buddhism (or other religions.. e.g. Comparative Religion) then the TeaRoom is the best place.

Just click on New Topic on the right hand side in whichever forum you've chosen and then write a title in the Subject box and the first post in the message box below it.

If anyone has any further queries about anything, please send a Personal Message to myself, Craig or Woodscooter. (Or if its technical, ask Woodscooter in Tech. Help)

Ok, back to the topic again in my next post!

with metta,

D.

[worldofwarcraft]

A lot of people like to say that they have the best teacher or the best method or whatever, and this is unfortunate. One has to understand for themselves the real reason why they consider someone as their teacher. Is it for mundane worldly reasons, such as the teachers fame, prestige, or popularity? Or is it because they resonate with us, and we trust that they can truly help us along our path and that their teachings and methods can help us to cultivate our wisdom?

I think offline teachers can be of great benefit to us on the path because they can help with our understanding and practice and definately resonate with us.

However there's always a danger that we can treat them like pop stars and idolise them to an excessive degree. We can also make them into crutches so that we don't think for ourselves any more. We have to learn to walk and talk by ourselves at some point.

[Savviioor]

Hi All,

I was wondering if anyone would like to comment on the Ajahn Buddhadasa extract below. Do you agree or disagree?




Teachers Are Prison

Now we come to the prison called "ajahn" (teacher, master, guru), the famous teachers whose names reverberate afar. In Burma there's "Sayadaw This," in Sri Lanka there's "Bhante That," in Tibet there's "Lama So- and -so," in China there's "Master Whoever."

Every place has its famous teacher whose name is bouncing around. Whether national, regional, provincial, or local, every place has got its Big Guru. Then people cling and attach to their teachers as being the only teacher who is correct; their teacher is right and all other teachers are completely wrong. They refuse to listen to other people's teachers. And they don't think about or examine the teachings of their own Ajahns.

They get caught in the "Teacher Prison." They turn the teacher into a prison, then get caught in it. It's an attachment which is truly ridiculous. Whether a big teacher or a small teacher, it's upadana (clinging, attachment) just the same. They keep building prisons out of their teachers and gurus. Please don't get caught in even this prison.

(from 'The Prison of Life' by Ajahn Buddhadasa)

http://www.suanmokkh.org/archive/arts/ret/prison1.htm

I agree

cling to anything, teacher or even words and there is dukkha


May all abide in supreme emptiness

[chuecfafresslds]

, clw_uk. Straight to the point in few words, very nice.

[ligaliaCods]

hi dazzle, it was just my thought that the 2nd noble truth states that the cause of suffering was clinging or attachment. i quess that would include dhamma teachers. and the kalama sutta advises (among other things) not to accept teaching just because it comes from one's teacher. just my thought. i'm a big fan of critical thinking.

[Uhmavano]

dhamma teachers, including the buddha himself.