[asivisepo]

I was looking at this article which was recently in the UK press and wondered if anyone had any comments about it.

This sentence also caught my eye ... "The quest for the historical Buddha – an exercise that parallels the 19th-century quest for the historical Jesus – is only just under way".


http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...stern-buddhism

[HsSp82U8]

That is a good article. It raises some interesting points. I found the statement: "... it actually functions as a perfect supplement to modern life. It allows adherents to decouple from the stress, whilst leaving the causes of the stress intact..." interesting. That is what I think is generally referred to as "Buddhism Light". I am not sure that all of its conclusions are entirely accurate. I've always felt that Dhamma is a philosophy in that it can be understood intellectually; a religion in that it can be experienced intuitively; and for many, a hobby. I don't know if it actually has to concern itself with its relationship to consumerism as opposed to any other 'religion'per se. Here in the United States, we worship money.

[intisgunkas]

If our practice is in accordance with the core teachings of the historical Buddha there is no need to make another "buddh-ism". The teachings of the historical Buddha are clearly exposed and they are not just a kind of miraculous western style stress-killer. The teachings of the historical Buddha will always be far from any sort of cultural effortless well fitted Buddh-isms that are found all around the globe. The teachings of the historical Buddha, IMHO, are neither a philosophy nor a religion because it is neither an speculation of reality nor a set of metaphysical entities so to worship them; but the different Buddh-isms are. In hand of the Westernized minds surely it will become another New Age mystical lite lifestyle philosophy.

The teachings of the historical Buddha are about Sila, Panna and Samadhi. The three of them are needed to be together in our practice. The correct practice of the teachings of the historical Buddha, and not the Buddh-isms, will sooner or later lead us into a whole deep change of lifestyle, more simple and deeply aware of our compulsive tendency to consume and behave becoming aware the way we actually deplete everybody and everything.

So we have two choices... to keep under the culture-less and timeless teachings of the historical Buddha left in the Pali Canon or embrace into one of the many Buddhisms that are at hand at the spiritual marketplace. If we look intuitively the story life of the historical Buddha we can witness the hows and whys of his radical change of lifestyle.

[jeockammece]

So we have two choices...

Actually, that is one choice with two options. But i know what you meant. Well said!

[9mm_fan]

'Historical Buddha'...lol

[Fuerfsanv]

This is the choice: genuine reform, or a tawdry golden statue in the corner of your living room. How about just understanding it?

[TiepayWrary]

That is funny because at the local Lao/Thai wat in our community, the main hall is a large room which serves many purposes and there is a huge flat screen TV there opposite the giant gold buddha shrine. I always joke with the monks by asking them what Buddha's favorite show is.

[Keeriewof]

So we have two choices... to keep under the culture-less and timeless teachings of the historical Buddha left in the Pali Canon or embrace into one of the many Buddhisms that are at hand at the spiritual marketplace. If we look intuitively the story life of the historical Buddha we can witness the hows and whys of his radical change of lifestyle.

In the part of the United States where I live, there Amish communities clustered here and there. If you are not familiar with the Amish and mennonite people, here is a link:
http://www.800padutch.com/amish.shtml

They are highly respected for their adherence to a simple way of life, strong sense of community, high moral standards and also for the fact that they have lived in a way that has not changed for hundreds of years. Most do not use any electricity. Buttons on clothing are considered self-glorifying, so they don't use them.

However, in this world very few people can leave their own way of life and be Amish. Likewise, I think that the Buddha's teachings take on whatever form benefits people the most. I doubt that in Europe or America we will ever see a monastic community such as has existed in the east. Yes, there will be a few monks and nuns, maybe thousands. But that is really a small number.

I don't think that Buddha's teachings are tarnished or lose their integrity when what it gives people becomes absorbed into popular culture. Just the opposite - I think this is evidence of what good medicine it is. According to the vajrayana teachings, the dharma is indestructible. And even though he said not to deify him, and at first, symbols such as the wheel or foot prints were used, people started making Buddha images a long time ago.

[Eh085zE7]

They are highly respected for their adherence to a simple way of life, strong sense of community, high moral standards and also for the fact that they have lived in a way that has not changed for hundreds of years. Most do not use any electricity. Buttons on clothing are considered self-glorifying, so they don't use them.

Yes, here in Mexico we have some of those human groups that live at the very north of our country.

However, in this world very few people can leave their own way of life and be Amish.

I do not what are doing the Amish in this thread and also where is the relationship with the quote you took from my post.

And even though he said not to deify him, and at first, symbols such as the wheel or foot prints were used, people started making Buddha images a long time ago.

To practice with absolute commitment the teachings of the historical Buddha do not mean to deify him. It is just that: to practice the teachings. But when one has started to deify him, then we are at the dawn of one more new Buddhism where the original intention of the teachings are, always, in danger to be lost.

[Queueftof]

I always joke with the monks by asking them what Buddha's favorite show is.

Maybe Baseball, isn't it?

[dosyrotsbop]

I thought the article brought up some good points as well. I'm not so much worried about the consumerism as the liability of Buddhism's powerful meditative exercises becoming tools of "the system" so to speak. I think practicing Buddhism without the contemplative and ethical aspect can be quite dangerous: it essentially becomes easy to make the meditative practices a vehicle to more easily assent to the maladies of our society. I saw a video on Youtube a few years ago about a marine who said he had practiced Buddhist meditation as a way of shutting off the aspect of his mind that was capable of humanizing his enemy. He talked about how meditation put him in "the zone" to accomplish his missions. This is evidence of how powerful meditation can be, but also how dangerous it can be without the right orientation.

On a much less violent scale, but just as insidious, people can be using meditation as a means of shutting off their critical thinking. As a result, they never really see their own motivations clearly: they don't see how much of of what drives this is internalized from their society, their upbringing, their physiology, and their reactions to all that. They simply use meditation to more easily facilitate their drives: to more easily crank away at the office (at a job they are only pursuing to make their parents happy or because they feel like it would make them more socially accepted), or they could use it to de-sensitize themselves from abuse from their partners, or shut off feelings of grief or anger or fear. Without a conscientious examination of who we really are (which is all the teaching of anatta is meant to facilitate), we will be driving on auto-pilot, and our practice will indeed become merely an opiate to numb ourselves from seeing things clearly.

However, I think the core of Buddhism resists this sort of commodification because it's nearly impossible to escape the stringent ethical and psychological "hygiene" that is part-and-parcel of the Eightfold Path. A practice without these vital elements will shrivel. For instance, if a person's interaction with Buddhism consists only of a daily anapanasati, what he gains is simply a transitory stress-relief exercise. Stress -relief has many benefits, but will never be life-changing or transformative without the accompanying orientation to living a life of simplicity and compassion. In fact, meditation in a vacuum (without the framework of the Buddha's entire life-path) may become just another venue in which we perpetuate the habits of greed, aversion, and confusion. The aforementioned meditator may use meditation for stress-relief, only to find it doesn't work (meditation with an agenda is self-defeating) and eventually become disillusioned with the practice.

[eFDMBwKH]

I thought the article brought up some good points as well. I'm not so much worried about the consumerism as the liability of Buddhism's powerful meditative exercises becoming tools of "the system" so to speak. I think practicing Buddhism without the contemplative and ethical aspect can be quite dangerous: it essentially becomes easy to make the meditative practices a vehicle to more easily assent to the maladies of our society. I saw a video...

Absolutely agree Glow...

[Quigoxito]

What a great discussion!
In my references to the Amish I didn't mean that people should give up using electricity or whatever. I was thinking about what was said about choosing between:
1. "...the culture-less and timeless teachings of the historical Buddha left in the Pali Canon.."
and
2. "...one of the many Buddhisms that are at hand at the spiritual marketplace..."

and what came to mind is that we shouldn't shy away from a buddhist tradition merely because it has taken on some of the cultural flavor of a place where it has flourished for a few centuries. But this means that in the west it may also acquire a somewhat new look. I mean, it has to to some extent. As long as the teachings are truly Buddhist teachings then I think there is a lot of flexibility.

[viepedorlella]

But this means that in the west it may also acquire a somewhat new look.

For sure and there is no shy about it.

As long as the teachings are truly Buddhist teachings then I think there is a lot of flexibility.

Yes, of course... at the moment when the teachings of the historical Buddha are culture-less and timeless they are suitable to any kind of culture. For example, the experience of being into a Soto Temple (a dojo) is very intense because there is some kind of Japanese understanding of things and I appreciate this kind of cultural meetings.

[thargeagsaf]

it's nearly impossible to escape the stringent ethical and psychological "hygiene" that is part-and-parcel of the Eightfold Path. A practice without these vital elements will shrivel. For instance, if a person's interaction with Buddhism consists only of a daily anapanasati, what he gains is simply a transitory stress-relief exercise. Stress -relief has many benefits, but will never be life-changing or transformative without the accompanying orientation to living a life of simplicity and compassion.

Hi Glow,
I see what you are saying regarding the risk of meditation being a shallow exercise when ill-informed or practiced out of context but I would not go as far as to state that practice without "stringent ethical and psychological hygiene" (however one defines that) will shrivel.

Unfortunately, there are teachings out there which state that unless a disciple already leads a perfectly pure, virtuous and compassionate life, he/she can never get anywhere within Buddhism.

I reject such teachings, as I believe everyone has to work with where they are and what they have. Otherwise a person may find themselves in a catch-22 situation; believing they are not virtuous enough to practice and, of course, with no practice comes no spiritual development.

Daily anapanasati can yield great fruit. If done correctly it brings transformative insight into the path, not just stress relief.

[irridgita]

Hi Glow,
I see what you are saying regarding the risk of meditation being a shallow exercise when ill-informed or practiced out of context but I would not go as far as to state that practice without "stringent ethical and psychological hygiene" (however one defines that) will shrivel.

Unfortunately, there are teachings out there which state that unless a disciple already leads a perfectly pure, virtuous and compassionate life, he/she can never get anywhere within Buddhism.

I reject such teachings, as I believe everyone has to work with where they are and what they have. Otherwise a person may find themselves in a catch-22 situation; believing they are not virtuous enough to practice and, of course, with no practice comes no spiritual development.

Daily anapanasati can yield great fruit. If done correctly it brings transformative insight into the path, not just stress relief.

Hi srivijaya. Points well taken. Maybe "hygiene" was the wrong word because it implies a foundation of "purity." I meant more the orientation itself: that people should take an interest in coming to know the nature of their mind and the patterns that are working themselves out in their lives. The suttas take this for granted, as do many modern books on meditation. But you'd be surprised how many people you will come across in meditation centers that don't not benefit from the practice because they never get beyond the initial calming that takes place -- they don't carry that stillness over to their everyday mundane lives.

[Amerworma]

But you'd be surprised how many people you will come across in meditation centers that don't not benefit from the practice because they never get beyond the initial calming that takes place -- they don't carry that stillness over to their everyday mundane lives.

Yes, before the advent of Soto Zen in Japan brought by Dogen Zenji, the Negemisho discipline was a very demanding meditative system so to be focused at the time of war confrontation. After that, Negemisho is still an strict discipline at the dojo but focused under the teachings of the Buddha. No more about war confrontation.

[Jannet.K]

I meant more the orientation itself: that people should take an interest in coming to know the nature of their mind and the patterns that are working themselves out in their lives.

Hi Glow,
Absolutely agree with that. That's all part and parcel of the insight process IMHO. I think the calming side of things buys people some distance from their normal habitual mode of interaction.
Hopefully, they can then use this contrast to learn about how their own mind works.

But you'd be surprised how many people you will come across in meditation centers that don't not benefit from the practice because they never get beyond the initial calming that takes place -- they don't carry that stillness over to their everyday mundane lives. I'm certainly surprised at what often gets presented as meditation.