[topbonusescod]

I'm currently reading "In the Buddha's Word..." by Bhikkhu Bodhi. I quote from this book." Here, it is said, the future Buddha descends fully concious from the Tusita heaven into his mother's womb; his conception and birth are accompanied by wonders; deities worship the newborn infant; and as soon as he is born he walks seven steps and announces his future destiny"

I was quire surprised to read this sort of mystical metaphor in relation to Buddhism. The similarity to the immaculate conception in Christianity is, to me, clear. It seems to say that Buddha was not human, in the usual sense.

Can anyone shed light on the relation of this statement to Buddhism.

[Glamyclitlemi]

How much?

I think that buddhism as any sort of "ism" can have a huge amount of mysticism. The teachings of the historical Buddha were transformed into a religion by cultural additions in some other traditions which added a considerable amount of mystical aspects.

Now, about the teachings of the Pali Canon I have not found yet anything about mysticism or that mysticism can be an important aspect for their practice.

The passage given about the descent of the Buddha surly is a kind of cultural symbolism that speaks more the Hindu imagination than a real event. It has to be interpreted. It has a meaning given through symbols.

That quote is from chapter two. Bhikkhu Bodhi gives an introduction for that chapter. The previous chapter is about human condition explaining the existential misery of mankind so that the next chapter is about "The Bringer of Light" or the person of the Buddha.

In page 46, Bhikkhu Bodhi's explains that the quote is a way to tell that "Obviously, for the compilers of such a sutta as this, the Buddha was already destined to Buddhahood even prior to his conception and thus his struggle for enlightenment was a battle whose outcome was already predetermined." But at the end of that same paragraph Bhikkhu tells this: "The final paragraph of the sutta, however, ironically hearkens back to the realistic picture of the Buddha [and the sutta too!]. What the Buddha himself considers to be truly wondrous are not the miracles accompanying his conception and bight, but his mindfulness and clear comprehension in the midst of feelings, thoughts and perceptions." [/size] given this in that same sutta:


[22] "Thus, Ananda, also remember this as a wonderful and amazing quality of the Tathagata: Here, Ananda, for the Tathagata sensations are known as they arise, when present and when they disappear, the perceptions are known when they arise, when present and when they disappear, the thoughts are known as they arise, when present and when they disappear. Remember this too, Ananda, as a wonderful and amazing quality of the Tathagata. "

MN 123[/size]

[Vkowefek]

Imo we have today far to small and too materialistic view of the world.
Yes of course we need a material view of the world,but not only.
I really do feel that if there is any point to life it's to expand our consciousness,(I would suggest there is no other point)
So the real question here is what do we mean by "mysticism"? It's only pedestrian to think of it as something strange/beyond our understanding. If we can see a bigger picture then the term becomes irrelevant.

[CHEAPCIALISFORYOU]

point to life it's to expand our consciousness

And our knowledge and reason?

[BiseCreesia]

So the real question here is what do we mean by "mysticism"?

Well, for the case of this thread I think that mysticism refers to what plogsties has quoted:

descends fully concious from the Tusita heaven into his mother's womb; his conception and birth are accompanied by wonders; deities worship the newborn infant; and as soon as he is born he walks seven steps and announces his future destiny"

and religious thought is full of this stories where many people really believe in them as a fact and not as a way to understand things. In this way there are "hidden" meanings, occultism, powerfull gurus who know everything and keep their secret doctrine to a few, etc. I really enjoy and feel better when we avoid this kind of tales and we get directly to the issue. I think this is more about temper than to really give such importance to tales like this one.

Religion is full of them. For me is delusion, imagination and romanticism and keeps us into a "mystical haze" that personally I feel uncomfortable. If the quote is about the person of the Buddha I do not need a tale or a fantastic superhero story. Tell me about the person of the Buddha. Some people do not need tales or occultism so to expand consciousness, so to find meaning because for some, meanings, are given and not needed to be found. But again... it is about temper, education, childhood experiences etc., that shape this kind of features.

[Encannavalf]

And our knowledge and reason?

These qualities are aspects of consciousness

[parishilton]

The passage quoted isn't mysticism, it's mythology. Mysticism refers to the insights one gains in meditation, for example. Knowledge one comes by via non-rational (i.e. intuitive) means. After the Buddha, much mythology evolved about his life, miracles he performed, other Buddhas, etc.

[EzequielTMann]

The passage quoted isn't mysticism, it's mythology.

True Mystic. So this thread is more about mythology in accordance with the quote given by plogsties.

:hand:

[HedoShoodovex]

Mysticism seems to be what the run-of-the-mill human being clings to; not the teachings and practices that are central to the Buddha's path to liberation. It's likely that the more deluded we are, the greater part mysticism in Buddhism plays a part in our lives. Such things can be a hindrance, but no one can change your beliefs... beliefs are conditioned, and only through the right kind of conditions do they change or cease. Words alone often fail, but the words (teachings) will still be there when the mind finally lets go, and then it will be able to see the path much more clearly.

[mr.supervideogoodfd]

"mystical haze" that personally I feel uncomfortable.

I feel uncomfortable also with such representations of the Buddha and the more I see of such things in a philosophical "system" , the less likely I am to take it seriously or to consider it relevant. I posted this question because I was take aback by the statement I quoted, because it was not rooted in reality. Treating this as mythology at least makes it palatable and easier to ignore. I am assuming this statement did not come from Buddha's own teachings but was created (imagined) by interpreters of his teachings to make Buddha appear to be superhuman rather than just another human who achieved enlightenment.

I also feel a little uncomfortable using the label "lord" Buddha and for the same reason - realizing that not everyone uses the word "lord" in the same way - because of the usual usage of that word in religious writings.

[usacomm]

Mysticism seems to be what the run-of-the-mill human being clings to; not the teachings and practices that are central to the Buddha's path to liberation. It's likely that the more deluded we are, the greater part mysticism in Buddhism plays a part in our lives. Such things can be a hindrance, but no one can change your beliefs... beliefs are conditioned, and only through the right kind of conditions do they change or cease. Words alone often fail, but the words (teachings) will still be there when the mind finally lets go, and then it will be able to see the path much more clearly.

Mysticism is part of the meditation practice. The insights acquired through meditation are by definition a mystical experience.

[repldoinfo]

"Supramundane" perhaps, not "mystical".

[TobaccoNUE]

Personally I would hesitate to describe Buddhist meditation and its results as "mystical".

To quote Ajahn Buddhadasa in 'Handbook for Mankind' p.21 :

" Buddhist practice is designed to teach us how things really are. To know this in all clarity is to attain the Fruit of the Path, perhaps even the final fruit, Nirvana, because this very knowing is what destroys the defilements when we come to know what is what, or the true nature of things, disenchantment with things takes the place of fascination -and deliverance from suffering comes automatically ."

and page 31

"Buddhism is an organised practical system designed to reveal to us what is what."


I tend to associate the word 'mysticism' with other religious traditions and New Age... ...and also with "Magic and Mystery in Tibet" and the books which first triggered the fascination with Tibetan Buddhism in the west, and later in me as a teenager. However, fantasising and speculating about such things doesn't help much with Dhamma practice at 'ground' level and can distract one from the all-important teachings of the historical Buddha,I discovered.

[QHdy5Z3A]

I tend to associate the word 'mysticism' with other religious traditions and New Age... ...and also with "Magic and Mystery in Tibet" and the books which first triggered the fascination with Tibetan Buddhism in the west

Me too, it was very easy in the beginning to get caught up in romantic notions of what eastern thought was all about; flying lamas, enlightened hermits, escaping from the mundane world, etc.

[JAMES PIETERSE]

escaping

I think this may be the word that represents a reason why some folks pursue Eastern types of religions.

[MannoFr]

escaping

Yes l feel that so many peoples lives are so devoid of what is worth while,that such 'escape' becomes an attractive option.
But it's fair to say that the values that we (both East and West) are encouraged to adopt are so facile these days that many may feel that something is missing. So it's no great surprise to see that the New Age stuff is attracting attention

[Cd9JfGHR]

I think this may be the word that represents a reason why some folks pursue Eastern types of religions.

True plogsties, but not only Eastern offers escaping philosophy. There are many kind of them in the very best Western way or religious thought. IMO any mystic haze, any tale, or any mythology are delusions and wonderfull comfort zones that keeps mind away from mindfulness.

Also in anthropology we know about the line of cultural evolution from a single symbol to a metaphor going through the phases of tales, legends and mysticism. For example, the quote given by you at post # 1 is a kind of tale made of a complex system of symbols that gives a metaphor that is experienced as a mystical experience. That experience being not a direct one of reality is delusional at any sense. To develop Right View the direct experience of things as they are is a needed condition. If this condition is not there, it is not Right View but anything else.

32. Saying, "Good, friend," the bhikkhus delighted and rejoiced in the Venerable Sariputta's words. Then they asked him a further question: "But, friend, might there be another way in which a noble disciple is one of right view... and has arrived at this true Dhamma?" — "There might be, friends.

33. "When, friends, a noble disciple understands clinging, the origin of clinging, the cessation of clinging, and the way leading to the cessation of clinging, in that way he is one of right view... and has arrived at this true Dhamma.

34. "And what is clinging, what is the origin of clinging, what is the cessation of clinging, what is the way leading to the cessation of clinging? There are these four kinds of clinging: clinging to sensual pleasures, clinging to views, clinging to rituals and observances, and clinging to a doctrine of self. With the arising of craving there is the arising of clinging. With the cessation of craving there is the cessation of clinging. The way leading to the cessation of clinging is just this Noble Eightfold Path; that is, right view... right concentration.

35. "When a noble disciple has thus understood clinging, the origin of clinging, the cessation of clinging, and the way leading to the cessation of clinging... he here and now makes an end of suffering. In that way too a noble disciple is one of right view... and has arrived at this true Dhamma."

Sammaditthi Sutta (MN9)