[q9h9pPne]

Dear forum

The First Noble Truth was spoken in at least two ways, as follows:

The Noble Truth of Suffering (dukkha), monks, is this:

Birth is suffering, aging is suffering, sickness is suffering, death is suffering;

Association with the unpleasant is suffering, dissociation from the pleasant is suffering, not to receive what one desires is suffering;

In brief, the five aggregates subject to grasping are suffering.

Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta "Now what is the noble truth of stress?

Birth is stressful, aging is stressful, death is stressful;

Sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief & despair are stressful;

Association with the unbeloved is stressful; separation from the loved is stressful; not getting what one wants is stressful.

In short, the five aggregates subject to grasping are stressful.

Maha-satipatthana Sutta My question or inquiry is, do we regard this diagnosis of suffering to be complete?

Are there significant forms of suffering omitted from the 1st Noble Truth?

For example, if a spiritually sick person were to read the 1st Noble Truth, may their illness not be on the list?

May they think: "I cannot find my problem here and I should search elsewhere".

Kind regards

[Gaiaakgyyyg]

I would say it covers everything. It covers all the dukkha that can occur in any situation, illness or otherwise.


The last part sums it up


In short, the five aggregates subject to grasping are stressful.


So whenever there is grasping, then any change or alteration in the aggregates will bring dukkha

[Galinastva]

For example, if a spiritually sick person were to read the 1st Noble Truth, may their illness not be on the list?

Hi Element,

What you mean by Spiritually sick person?

a person which sickness is at his spiritual life?

or a person devoted to spiritual life but has a kind of terminal illness...

I would say it covers everything.

Of course... and more...

If you give an insightfull reading of it you will see that Sorrow, Lamentation, Pain, Grief and Dispair are ways we react to life facts. Dispositions to life events. Life events are as they are and we elaborate form them Lamentation, Sorrow, Pain, etc...

Also through the understanding of the very First Noble Truth; though a deep insight and a meditative disposition to it we can elaborate the other three. So I think that this teaching, sometimes forgotten or unseen because the entangled cultural add ons, has the seed for the understanding of the rest of the historical Buddha teachings and the accomplishment of this teaching is of paramount importance for who seeks to overcome suffering.

[VewCoorkPow]

The last part sums it up


In short, the five aggregates subject to grasping are stressful.


So whenever there is grasping, then any change or alteration in the aggregates will bring dukkha

Hi Craig

Naturally, I agree with you here because the Buddha described the essence of dukkha as grasping (upadana).

However, the Buddha did not exclusively mention 'grasping' in the first noble truth.

Instead, the Buddha provided a gradual teaching, listing what ordinary people regard as suffering (birth, sickness, death, sorrow, pain, separation, etc) and then revealing, on the level of ultimate truth, all suffering is grasping.

So returning to the more mundane expressions of dukkha, I am still not certain the list is complete.

For example, a person who is physically sick reads the 1st noble truth and reflects: "Indeed sickness is suffering, the Buddha has seen my predicament."

Or a person who has lost a loved one reads the 1st noble truth and reflects: "Indeed, separation from the loved is suffering, the Buddha has seen my predicament."

So before the ultimate level of grasping is understood, are there more mundane experiences of suffering missing from the 1st noble truth?

Kind regards

[Soypopetype]

Hi Kaarine

By 'spiritual sickness', I am referring to some kind of dissatisfaction or feeling troubled - based in defilement (greed, hatred & delusion).

This is distinct from 'mental illness' (based in neurological disorder or chemical imbalance) or 'physical illness' (such as influenza or cancer).

Kind regards

[Varbaiskkic]

Thanks Element,

Well I have to tell that many people when faced with the First Noble Truth are unable to recognize themselves in it.

Now, I find that your "spiritual troubled" person, being into dissatisfaction can see his/her case in that first noble truth... but it takes time for a person to reach that First Noble Truth. Like in Thermodynamics; there is a Null Law, I don't remember it but seems that there is a Null Noble Truth that apeals to discover youself truly under suffering. I think it is about insight. Insight needs time and space and many people have such busy lives that time and space for insight are not there by any means. Happens that suffering need to become very deep and evident in life so to understand the First Noble Truth.

[cingularring]

can't really follow you there. I don't see that there is any human experience missing from the list...

[Enjknsua]

The definition of dukkha in the second quote of the first post seems to me to cover the entire field, because it implies that dukkha arises whenever we want something to be other than it is; whenever we want reality to be other than it is, to suit our desires. Without the desiring mind, dukkha cannot arise, I think.

[NanoKakadze]

OK

I suppose I was considering the three kind is defilements, namely, greed, hatred & delusion and felt there was a lack of mundane dukkha based around delusion-ignorance-confusion.

Most of the dukkha seems connected to pleasant & unpleasant feelings, that is, sorrow, pain, the loved, the unloved, wanting, etc.

In the suttas, the Buddha gives a special antidote for confusion-ignorance, such as follows:

If, when touched by a feeling of neither pleasure nor pain, one does not discern, as it actually is present, the origination, passing away, allure, drawback and escape from that feeling, then one's ignorance-tendency gets obsessed. That a person — without uprooting ignorance-tendency with regard to a feeling of neither pleasure nor pain, without abandoning ignorance and giving rise to clear knowing — would put an end to suffering & stress in the here & now: such a thing isn't possible.

Chachakka Sutta Often human beings feel confused, desiring to understand, frustrated because they do not know a reason, path or solutions, etc.

I was thinking this is a little different to "association with the unloved/disliked" and "wanting something and not getting it".

Kind regards

[hrthwhr]

Often human beings feel confused, desiring to understand, frustrated because they do not know a reason, path or solutions, etc.

I was thinking this is a little different to "association with the unloved/disliked" and "wanting something and not getting it". if they desire to understand but dont find an answer then wouldnt this cause dukkha, and so would be an outgrowth out of desiring to get?

[Npbfamgt]

[...] with out abandoning ignorance and giving rise to clear knowing [...] such a thing is not possible.

Absolutly... I do not see any trouble with this.

Often human beings feel confused, desiring to understand, frustrated because they do not know a reason, path or solutions, etc.

I was thinking this is a little different to "association with the unloved/disliked" and "wanting something and not getting it".

OK... here is the issue...

What kind of Dukkha does this provoke?

Dukkha is a state of mind. The Buddha clearly set three states of mind that embrace all mental experiences. Hate that arise from the one what we want to be ride off; Greed that arise form what we get attached too; and Ignorance that arise when we do not understand or we can not discern about. The lack of discernment brings us Dukkha; confusion is Dukkha; lack of understanding brings Dukkha... The unique state of an Ignorant mind is Dukkha as has been stated in the "Three Poisons".

Is this what you mean Element?

[uphokyhuP]

Yes it is. The Four Noble Truths only seem to mention two poisons rather than three poisons.



Upon reflection, it seems the Four Noble Truths are centred on birth, aging, illlness & death, both literally and as impermanence.

Prince Siddharta did leave home looking for a solution for birth, aging, illlness & death.

From attachment to birth, aging, illlness & death, arise sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief & despair and the dukkha of separation from the loved, association with the unloved & wanting something and not get it.

[Abaronos]

it seems the Four Noble Truths are centred on birth, aging, illness & death, both literally and as impermanence.

Yes it seems but without a literal reading and embracing in the the experience of the teaching we reach the Fourth Noble Truth which is stated in Saccavibhanga Sutta:

""What is right understanding? It is this knowledge of suffering, knowledge of the arising of suffering, knowledge of the cessation of suffering, knowledge of the path leading to the cessation of suffering — this is called right understanding."

and Right Understanding is about the poison of Ignorance...

and also in Dammacakkappavattana Sutta:

"And what is the middle way realized by the Tathagata that — producing vision, producing knowledge — leads to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding? Precisely this Noble Eightfold Path: right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. This is the middle way realized by the Tathagata that — producing vision, producing knowledge — leads to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding."

again it speaks about Ignorance as a lack of vision and knowledge or right view...

I really think that the Four Noble Truths are about the way we exist and how that way of existence leads to dukkha. They are a complete body of understanding and they do not left anything outside... at least that is my experience with this teaching.

Now, as I know that the Four Noble Truths shown in this suttas do not quote exactly "this are the three poisons..."; I just used that quote to illustrate someting that is at the base or foundation of the Four Noble Truths: Ignorance. Along an insightfull reading of this teachings lies a teaching pointing toward an ignorant or deluded condition of mind.

Besides this two suttas, the teaching of the Four Noble Truths are spread all along the main teachings of the Sutta Pitaka; some are found in the MN, others at the SN, etc. It is needed practice and patience to develop the insight demanded by the Buddha teachings.

[Soolfelpecelf]

Instead, the Buddha provided a gradual teaching, listing what ordinary people regard as suffering (birth, sickness, death, sorrow, pain, separation, etc) and then revealing, on the level of ultimate truth, all suffering is grasping.

I need to get one point clarified Element.

I remember sometimes back you said in a thread that phenomena are inherently dukkha. So why do you say that "birth, sickness, death, sorrow, pain, separation" lie in the scope of mundane teachings for ordinary people and grasping lies in the scope of super-mundane? If a phenomenon is inherently dukkha then why is saying "birth is dukkha" mundane?

Personally I think what you say here is correct. Saying birth/sickness are dukkha is mundane because that is how ordinary people view dukkha but on a more super-mundane level it needs to be understood that it is attachment that is ultimately causing dukkha. I am raising this question only because what you say here seems to contradict what you said earlier that phenomena are inherently dukkha.

[sarasmid]

Hi Deshy

That phenomena are inherently dukkha is not the teaching of the Four Noble Truths (1st Sermon).

That phenomena are inherently dukkha is the teaching of the Three Characteristics (2nd Sermon).

Dukkha has three different meanings:

1. Painful feeling (dukkha vedana)
2. Inherent unsatisfactoriness (dukkha lakkhana or viparinama dukkha)
3. Mental concocting (sankhara dukkha)

The 1st Sermon is about sankhara dukkha, i.e., the dukkha of attachment ('I-making' & 'my-making').

Kind regards

[royarnekara]

So nibbana is freedom from only sankhara dukkha, am I right?

[doctorzlo]

Naturally.

[EbrsaRynleot]

Hi Element,

So, does the First Sermon is MN141? and the second SN56.11?

The three different meanings of Dukkha are understood within this two teachings?

Thanks,

[Lkemybab]

Hi Kaarine

MN 141 is a detailed discourse on the First Sermon (4NTs) by the Venerable Sariputta.

Notice how MN 141 defines each factor of the Noble Eightfold Path in detail.

The First Sermon is SN 56.11

The Second Sermon is SN 22.59

The Third Sermon is SN 35.28

Or simply see Three Cardinal Discourses of the Buddha

In fact, it can be said these three suttas sufficiently contain the supramundane teachings.

Kind regards

[TepSteade]

The meaning of dukkha is different in the First Sermon than in the Second Sermon.

In the First Sermon, dukkha is mental suffering.

In the Second Sermon, dukkha is the inherent unsatisfactory characteristic associated with impermanence.

Like when our computer breakdowns (due to impermanence), we scream: "This computer is a heap of sh#t!"

The heap of sh#t is the inherent unsatisfactory characteristic.

The more the mind penetrates unsatisfactoriness, the more the mind is liberated from mental suffering.

The Buddha said:

277. "All conditioned things are impermanent" — when one sees this with wisdom, one turns away from suffering. This is the path to purification.

278. "All conditioned things are unsatisfactory (dukkha)" — when one sees this with wisdom, one turns away from suffering. This is the path to purification.

279. "All things are not-self" — when one sees this with wisdom, one turns away from suffering. This is the path to purification.

Maggavagga Kind regards