[Fgunehjf]

Rebirth and the Realms as mental states....any comments?


So too, bhikkhus, those beings are few who, when they pass away from the animal realm, are reborn among human beings. But those beings are more numerous who, when they pass away from the animal realm, are reborn in hell.

For what reason? Because bhikkhus, they have not seen the Four Noble Truths. What four?" The noble truth of suffering, the noble truth of the origin of suffering, the noble truth of the cessation of suffering, the noble truth of the way leading to the cessation of suffering.

SN 56.121 (Bodhi translation)
What does this mean? How can animals understand the Four Noble Truths? Does it mean a mental state?

[DailyRingtone]

It sounds like he is saying they can't understand the 4 noble truths to me...

[makemoneyonli]

What about the "few" though? It doesn't say 'none'. If there are a few, then how can those few animals understand the 4 Noble Truths?

Does anyone have an offline copy of the Samyutta Nikaya to check out this sutta, please? I got the quote from somewhere - but not the whole sutta.

[86GlSqSK]

Thats basically the whole sutta. Its one of those that repeats with just different realms in different versions

The first sutta says the same but with human realms only, then human realms and ghost realms and so on


Of course those caught up in the animal realm cant contemplate the four noble truths for there is to much focus on carnal desire such as sex, food etc. My thinking is that perhaps its an error in the recitation somewhere along the line

[Pwy9egVW]

...? what's the error?

[Badyalectlawl]

Regarding the animal realm, in "Two Kinds of Language" Bhikkhu Buddhadasa said :


Now to the realm of beasts (tiracchana). Birth as a beast means in everyday language actual physical birth as a pig, a dog, or some other actual animal. Rebirth after death as some kind of lower animal is the everyday meaning of rebirth into the realm of the beasts.

In Dhamma language, it has a different meaning. When one is stupid, just like a dumb animal, then at that moment one is born into the realm of beasts. It happens right here and now. One may be born as a beast many times over in a single day. So in Dhamma language, birth as a beast means stupidity.

http://www.buddhadasa.com/naturaltru...language3.html

[Vemnagelignc]

What about the "few" though? It doesn't say 'none'. If there are a few, then how can those few animals understand the 4 Noble Truths?

Does anyone have an offline copy of the Samyutta Nikaya to check out this sutta, please? I got the quote from somewhere - but not the whole sutta.

I've got the SN here. The passage you quoted is part of a longer series and should be taken in context, I think. The section title is "The Five Destinations Repetition Series".

Anyone who has read much of the Canon is familiar with the repetitions and listings, so you'll probably be able to infer what's in the sutta despite my many ellipses. It's too long to type in its entirety, but I'll try to give you the gist of it:

(102)(1)"Then the Blessed One took up a little bit of soil in his fingernail and addressed the bhikkhus thus:

"What do you think, bhikkhus, which is more: the little bit of soil in my fingernail or the great earth?"
"Venerable sir, the great earth is more..."
"So too, bhikkhus, those beings are few who, when they pass away as human beings, are reborn among human beings. But those beings are more numerous who, when they pass away as human beings, are reborn in hell. For what reason? Because, bhikkus, they have not seen the Four Noble Truths. What four?... [as in Aloka-D's quote] Therefore, bhikkus, an exertion should be made to understand: 'This is suffering.'...An exertion should be made to understand: 'This is the way leading to the cessation of suffering.'"

...

(103) "So, too, bhikkus, those beings are few who, when they pass away as human beings...But those beings are more numerous who pass away as humans are reborn in the animal realm..."

(104) "...domain of ghosts..."
(105) [few humans reborn among devas, many reborn instead in hell...the animal realm...domain of ghosts]
(108) [few beings who pass awas as devas reborn as devas, many reborn instead hell/animal realm/domain of ghosts]
(111) [few pass away as devas and reborn as humans, many instead reborn in hell/animal realm/domain of ghosts]
(114) [few pass away from hell reborn among humans, many instead reborn as above]
(117) [few pass away from hell reborn among devas, many instead...]
(120) [few pass away from animal realm reborn among humans, many instead...]
(123) [few...reborn among devas, many instead...]
(126) [few pass away from the domain of ghosts reborn among humans, many instead...]
(127) [few...reborn among devas, many instead...]
(131) [finished series with many passing away from the domain of ghosts reborn in the domain of ghosts]..."Therefore, bhikkus, an exertion should be made..."

(Bhikkhu Bodhi trans)

This strikes me - as so many other of the repetitive suttas - to have been designed to be memorized. One repeats the stock phrases, keeping track only of one's systematic progress through the changed phrases.

I don't think all the details of each repetition through each of the realms was intended to be taken literally, though the later Abhidhamma apologists apparently did think so. I think the repetition through each of the various realms was purely rhetorical, intended to emphasize the exhaustive nature of the claim that the (only?) way to Liberation was through the 4NT. IOW, it was designed to encourage and energize the monks to be diligent in their practice; I don't see it as an ontological claim to literal truth.

Hope that helps!

[Narus63]

Hope that helps

I couldn't find the whole sutta anywhere online - so many thanks for that FBH !

[preptarra]

I thought that this might be the case, FBM...and it reminds me of the "beginingless time" suttas that are so often abused so badly.


Aloka-D, what was the context in which the snippet of that sutta was presented? I have seen Bodhi and others take other snippets out of context and use them in this way before, misrepresenting them to seem to support other aspects of their belief systems.

[Pete789]

Hi Stuka,

I found it as presented here, it was in a thread in connection with animals in another forum (which was deleted later by a moderator) and I saved it, because I wondered if maybe it could mean a mental state rather than a literal realm.

D

[oranowdenda]

When I run across people who propose any sort of cosmology or ontology and base it on excerpts from the suttas, I try to remind them that, although the Buddha was definitely a philosopher, he wasn't a system-builder like Heidegger, Hegel and so forth. He said what needed to be said in order to show the listeners at the time how to advance further, with little regard for the sort of internal consistency that we expect these days.

I don't know if the Buddha himself actually believed in those realms or if he simply couched his message (the importance of the 4NT) in those terms because his listeners at that time believed in them. I can imagine how he would've seen their belief in those realms as a relatively trivial issue compared to the message of the 4NT.