[nasxbrtyol]

Any world is a sense experience, located in the mind.

8)

[AntonioMQ]

What does that say about the opportunity to meet accomplished masters in the flesh who certainly embody Buddha-like qualities? WOW

I think we should never discredit the fact that we can have 'teachers' who further our progress and give us spiritual aid in sometimes the least expected places and circumstances.

In today's Buddhist (and non-buddhist )world we get told about many (mostly men) people who are accomplished masters. Good persuasive PR work in some instances, especially if one is gullible and told beforehand that this person is "an enlightened Buddha" !

It's also worth remembering that the truly enlightened might not necessarily promote themselves through a Buddhist organisation, do TV shows, or have adoring fans who talk of little else others than their gurus and their perceived accomplishments.

I don't deny that there's benefit from contact with genuine teachers - but maybe we also have to throw away the crutches, let go of the prop at some point ...and just walk by ourselves.

Blind faith and excessive devotion to other 'guru' human beings can sometimes lead to fanaticism and unbeneficial fuzzy devotional feel-good states, which can actually hinder spiritual progess rather than help it. Hard to see when one is in the middle of it, of course.


So yes, as I mentioned before in an earlier post, for me it all harks back to different mental states rather than exterior 'realms' out there somewhere. One's own mental state can be a 'pure realm'.

Also relevant too is the old saying "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder."

[kentbrookug]

unbeneficial fuzzy devotional feel-good states,

Worshiping "gurus" are like taking drugs... "She or He" can make us feel wonderful or the contrary, some people likes to be mistreatd by a teacher. Maybe this has to do with some sort of low self-esteem. There is a subtle difference between "walking together" with a teacher from "worshiping" and "becoming like him". A really good "teacher" will tell you... "do not follow me... never hold on me... never put my words in your mouth... do your job... the zafu is only yours... do not expect me to tell you the way you have to think about."

It's also worth remembering that the truly enlightened might not necessarily promote themselves through a Buddhist organisation, do TV shows, or have adoring fans who talk of little else others than their gurus and their perceived accomplishments.

Very true Aloka,

[jeockammece]

What significance does the concept of Pure Abodes and Heavens have for you and for you practice?

Means nothing... there is no need to believe in Pure Abodes and Heavens... the need is to develop Right View and realize the Four Noble Truths... the rest, if there is something like that, will happen by itself and leave it like that.

[allvideO]

I think we should never discredit the fact that we can have 'teachers' who further our progress and give us spiritual aid in sometimes the least expected places and circumstances.

In today's Buddhist (and non-buddhist )world we get told about many (mostly men) people who are accomplished masters. Good persuasive PR work in some instances, especially if one is gullible and told beforehand that this person is "an enlightened Buddha" ! I find the gender imbalance unfortunate as well. Have not had the experience of PR work. Maybe having had experiences with a couple of teachers outside of teachings first changed my perspective. Though I have run across some (what I believe to be) fake teachings & teachers, much later... it is not pretty.

It's also worth remembering that the truly enlightened might not necessarily promote themselves through a Buddhist organisation, do TV shows, or have adoring fans who talk of little else others than their gurus and their perceived accomplishments. who does TV shows?


I don't deny that there's benefit from contact with genuine teachers - but maybe we also have to throw away the crutches, let go of the prop at some point ...and just walk by ourselves. The way I see it, we really have no choice but to do that as contact is far from continuous, at least for me. I also kinda think of the guru as symbol as much as a person. Sometimes even more as a symbol than a person, at least in Guru Yoga practice. I think...

Blind faith and excessive devotion to other 'guru' human beings can sometimes lead to fanaticism and unbeneficial fuzzy devotional feel-good states, which can actually hinder spiritual progess rather than help it. Hard to see when one is in the middle of it, of course. I think devotion is very powerful, no matter what the context. Whether to a guru, lover, leader, or idea. When devotion is really strong our normal protective barriers are not present. Whether or not this is beneficial seems to be really situation specific. Any which way it is very threatening for me, and I would imagine many others, especially when it involves a lover or guru. If we open ourselves with this trust only as much as we are ready and with someone who is worthy of the trust, then I think it is beneficial. If we open too much, too soon, or with someone who is really not that experienced themselves the results can be disastrous to say the least. Especially with a teacher that is not realized (I have actually experienced this somewhat, though not in the context of Buddhism). From my perspective this is probably the greatest danger of a Guru-devotional system like Vajrayana Buddhism.

The issues of blind faith is very interesting to me, perhaps worthy of another topic, probably too much to explore with depth here.

So yes, as I mentioned before in an earlier post, for me it all harks back to different mental states rather than exterior 'realms' out there somewhere. One's own mental state can be a 'pure realm'.

Also relevant too is the old saying "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder."

hands I wonder if one's mental state is a pure realm, is that the same thing as the exterior realm being pure?


(Edited by stuka to fix quotes)

[BDDkDvgZ]

dang it, i always mess up the quote thingees, and the preview thing doesn't work.

[maclaudser]

Koolaid, watch your "end-quotes" -- you used back-slashes ( \ ) instead of the forward slashes ( / ) the syntax requires to end your quotes; it should look like this: [/quote]. Also, you should be able to highlight the bit that you want to address, and click on "Quote (selected)", and the software should dump only what you selected into the reply window, for example:

dang it, i always mess up the quote thingees

No, actually, you got it right four out of the six times

and the preview thing doesn't work.

Not sure why it wouldn't, you might try elaborating about that a bit more in the Technical Help Forum...?

[HotDolly]

It all sounds like a nice idea but if its not here and now it has no significance to me. As has been said previously I suspect they are states of mind.

[sesWaipunsaws]

It all sounds like a nice idea but if its not here and now it has no significance to me. As has been said previously I suspect they are states of mind.

[advabHixavoip]

Quote from: KoolAid900 on August 30, 2010, 11:49:48 PM
dang it, i always mess up the quote thingees

No, actually, you got it right four out of the six times up2

Thanks for fixing it!

Also, you should be able to highlight the bit that you want to address, and click on "Quote (selected)", and the software should dump only what you selected into the reply window,

Awesome!!! This is so helpful!

[VIAGRA-VIAGRA]

The Pure Abodes thing and similar stories are mildly interesting to me as metaphors, but that's about it. Most Buddhist scholars are convinced that such stories were designed as responses to pre-existing doctrines in the Vedas or among the Jains, etc, many of which have been lost to history. One thing that the scholars I've read* all agree on is that they weren't meant to be taken literally. Literalism wasn't applied to the suttas, they say, until later commentors and apologists tried to systematize the suttas into a consistent logical structure. Seems those people didn't know their metaphor from a hole in the ground.


*I'm thinking of Gombrich, Rhys Davids, Hwang, etc.

[RLRWai4B]

One thing that the scholars I've read* all agree on is that they weren't meant to be taken literally.

If you have any citations to this at hand, might you kindly pass them to me? Would very much appreciate.

[budumol]

Just as an aside relating to Professor Richard Gombrich mentioned by FBM #30 (who is a Pali scholar as well as a historian of early Buddhism) ....part of one of his books 'How Buddhism began - the conditioned genesis of the early teachings' can be found to read here at Google books:


http://books.google.com/books?id=aIO...page&q&f=false



also a lecture of possible interest:

Kindness and compassion as a means to Nirvana in early Buddhism:


http://www.ocbs.org/content/view/61/121/

[Mypepraipse]

Originally Posted by Former Buddhist Monk One thing that the scholars I've read* all agree on is that they weren't meant to be taken literally.

If you have any citations to this at hand, might you kindly pass them to me? Would very much appreciate. #51 here and I'm just getting a start on this, which is scholarly in the philosophical sense, but not so much in a scientific sense, at least to the point I've read.

[Haremporblape]

also a lecture of possible interest:

Kindness and compassion as a means to Nirvana in early Buddhism:


http://www.ocbs.org/content/view/61/121/

Wow, thanks for sharing, I enjoyed this quite a bit!

[Yb4bulVR]

Wow, thanks for sharing, I enjoyed this quite a bit!

Hi KoolAid, I think in the context of this topic its worth me quoting Gombrich from that same lecture:


"The fully developed Buddhist cosmology does appear within the canon, but I am extremely sceptical about whether it can be ascribed to the Buddha himself. I am sceptical not only because of the way that the details can be accounted for as a historical development; to show such interest in the structure of the universe goes against the Buddha's explicit message. The world, he says, lies within this fathom-long human carcass; indeed there are many texts in which he discourages speculation about or even interest in the physical universe; we should concentrate om our experience of life here and now."

[RastusuadegeFrimoum]

indeed there are many texts in which he discourages speculation about or even interest in the physical universe; we should concentrate om our experience of life here and now."

PS: About this Professor Hawkins now can tell...

[LarpBulaBus]

The world, he says, lies within this fathom-long human carcass

Lovely idea... surely the profound meaning of a pure realm. Also reminds me of the idea of the aligning of microcosm & macrocosm present in numerous esoteric traditions.

[actrisski]

I think this quote from the wise words of the late Ajahn Buddhadasa is very relevant to this topic ....and directs us away from speculation about other realms and back to the importance of our actual practice.


"The real Buddhism is not books, not manuals, not word for word repetition from the Tipitaka, nor is it rites and rituals. These are not the real Buddhism. The real Buddhism is the practice, by way of body, speech and mind that will destroy the defilements, in part or completely.

One need not have anything to do with books or manuals. One ought not to rely on rites and rituals, or anything else external, including spirits and celestial beings.

Rather one must be directly concerned with bodily action, speech and thought. That is, one must persevere in one's efforts to control and eliminate the defilements so that clear insight can arise. One will then be automatically capable of acting appropriately, and will be free of suffering from that moment right up to the end.

This is the real Buddhism. This is what we have to understand. Let us not go foolishly grasping at the tumour that is obscuring Buddhism, taking it for the real thing."



http://www.buddhanet.net/budasa4.htm


That's why I enjoy going to Ajahn Sumedho's teachings so much, because they direct one away from all the irrelevant stuff and back to practice in the here and now.

[entaifsfets]

"The real Buddhism is not books, not manuals

Shure... I can tell about it... books are not enough...