[Verger99]

dear Theravada forum & Dhamma friends

i have just discovered this sutta:

Have no fear, Mahanama! Have no fear! Your death will not be a bad one, your demise will not be bad. If one's mind has long been nurtured with conviction, nurtured with virtue, nurtured with learning, nurtured with relinquishment, nurtured with discernment, then when the body — endowed with form, composed of the four primary elements, born from mother & father, nourished with rice & porridge, subject to inconstancy, rubbing, pressing, dissolution & dispersion — is eaten by crows, vultures, hawks, dogs, hyenas, or all sorts of creatures, nevertheless the mind — long nurtured with conviction, nurtured with virtue, learning, relinquishment & discernment — rises upward and separates out (uddhagāmi hoti visesagāmi).

Suppose a man were to throw a jar of ghee or a jar of oil into a deep lake of water, where it would break. There the shards & jar-fragments would go down, while the ghee or oil would rise upward and separate out. In the same way, if one's mind has long been nurtured with conviction, nurtured with virtue, nurtured with learning, nurtured with relinquishment, nurtured with discernment, then when the body... is eaten by crows, vultures, hawks, dogs, hyenas, or all sorts of creatures, nevertheless the mind... rises upward and separates out.

Have no fear, Mahanama! Have no fear! Your death will not be a bad one, your demise will not be bad.

Mahanama Sutta

˚Gāmin (adj.) [from gacchati, gam] f. ˚iṇī, in composition ˚gāmi˚. -- (a) going, walking, lit.: sīgha˚ walking quickly Sn 381; -- (b) leading to, making for, usually with magga or paṭipadā (gāminī), either lit. Pāṭaliputtagāmi -- magga the road to P

Uddhaŋ (& Uddha˚) (indecl.) [nt. of adj. *uddha = Sk. ūrdhva high; to Idg. ared(h) as in Lat. arduus steep, or ured as in Sk. vardhate to raise, Gr. o)rqo/s straight] high up, on top, above (adv. & prep.). -- On uddhaŋ in spatial, temporal, ethical & psychological application see in detail Nd2 155. -- I. (adv.). -- A. (of space) up, aloft, on top, above (opp. adho) -- In contrast with adho (above > below) -- Esp. with ref. to the points of the compass as "in zenith" (opp. adho "in nadir"), e. g. at D i.222 ("straight up"); It 120; J i.20. B. (of time) in future, ahead, hence Sn 894; Nd1 303 (u. vuccati anāgataŋ). -- II. (prep. with abl. & instr.). A. (of space) in phrase uddhaŋ pādatalā adho kesamatthakā (above the soles & below the scalp)

Visesa [fr. vi+śiṣ, cp. Epic Sk. viśeṣa] 1. (mark of) dis- tinction, characteristic, discrimination -- 2. elegance, splendour, excellence -- 3. distinction, peculiar merit or advantage, eminence, excellence, extraordinary state -- 4. difference, variety -- 5. specific idea (in meditation), attainment -- âdhigama specific attainment -- gāmin reaching distinction, gaining merit -- gū reaching a higher state or attainment -- paccaya ground for distinction -- bhāgiya participating in, or leading to distinction or progress (spiritually)

[twinaircant]

nevertheless the mind... rises upward and separates out. When I read this, I remembered when I was a teenager (around 14-15 ) wishing for something like this. It was a feeling of wanting to dissolve into space, so that there was no separation from natural phenomena. At that time I wrote a poem about it.

It also appears to be rather similar to Vajrayana Phowa.

http://ayangrinpoche.org/an-introduction-to-phowa/

[bug_user]

...when I was a teenager (around 14-15 ) wishing for something like this...it also appears to be rather similar to Vajrayana Phowa.

yes. it would be expected the discursive imagination would construe this sutta to be similar to Vajrayana Phowa

but the Buddha simply & literally said here: "if the mind has long been nurtured with conviction, nurtured with virtue, nurtured with learning, nurtured with relinquishment, nurtured with discernment then this leads (gamani) the mind (citta) to becoming (hoti) lofty (uddha) and distinguished/noble (visesa)

although literal 'rebirth' may be imagined, it appears this is not present in that Sutta. it appears literal 'rebirth' is being inferred, as explained in AN 2.23 & AN 2.25

[Avaindimik]

When the mind is attached to the mundane, to the worldly stuff of daily life at the break down of the body there will be mental suffering.

Somebody who has not trained her/himself in the doctrine of relinquishment the event of dying or the idea of it will bring outstanding mental suffering.

Also the event of the separation of the compounded elements of the body, the dissolution of its supports and events of this sort that are unavoidable will happen but with a mind at ease with them, if this mind has practiced Gotama's doctrine.

Maybe, there is the temptation to bring into this sutta the idea of a continuum of consiousness, but I don't have that reading from it.

Anyway...

[Jxlacvio]

When the mind is attached to the mundane, to the worldly stuff...there is the temptation to bring into this sutta the idea of a "continuum of consiousness" but I don't give that reading from it.

Yes, it seems so

Buddha has used a physical simile but it seems the translator has interpreted it literally (materialistically) rather than meditatively

using the same words, in SN 12.19, Buddha asked the question:

Tatra , bhikkhave, ko viseso ko adhippayāso kiṃ nānākaraṇaṃ paṇḍitassa bālenā

So what difference, what distinction, what distinguishing factor is there between the wise person & the fool? Buddha simply & literally said: "if the mind has long been nurtured with conviction, nurtured with virtue, nurtured with learning, nurtured with relinquishment, nurtured with discernment then this leads (gamini) the mind (citta) to becoming (hoti) lofty (uddha) and distinguished from the ordinary (visesa)"

[sbrthrds]

Buddha simply & literally said: "if the mind has long been nurtured with conviction, nurtured with virtue, nurtured with learning, nurtured with relinquishment, nurtured with discernment then this leads (gamani) the mind (citta) to becoming (hoti) lofty (uddha) and distinguished/noble from the ordinary (visesa)"

and how is the mind ordinary and how is the mind distinguished from the ordinary?

There is the case where an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person — who has no regard for noble ones, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma; who has no regard for men of integrity, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma — assumes form (the body) to be the self, or the self as possessing form, or form as in the self, or the self as in form. He is seized with the idea that 'I am form' or 'Form is mine.' As he is seized with these ideas, his form changes & alters, and he falls into sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress & despair over its change & alteration.

There is the case where a well-instructed disciple of the noble ones — who has regard for noble ones, is well-versed & disciplined in their Dhamma; who has regard for men of integrity, is well-versed & disciplined in their Dhamma — does not assume form to be the self, or the self as possessing form, or form as in the self, or the self as in form. He is not seized with the idea that 'I am form' or 'Form is mine.' As he is not seized with these ideas, his form changes & alters, but he does not fall into sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress or despair over its change & alteration.

SN 22.1

[hictchewisa]

There was a link to another sutta at the bottom of that one. I found this on there and quite liked it:
"Suppose a tree were leaning toward the east, slanting toward the east, inclining toward the east. When its root is cut, which way would it fall?"

"In whichever way it was leaning, slanting, and inclining, lord."

"In the same way, Mahanama, a disciple of the noble ones, when endowed with four qualities, leans toward Unbinding, slants toward Unbinding, inclines toward Unbinding."

[roundman]

but the Buddha simply & literally said here: "if the mind has long been nurtured with conviction, nurtured with virtue, nurtured with learning, nurtured with relinquishment, nurtured with discernment then this leads (gamani) the mind (citta) to becoming (hoti) lofty (uddha) and distinguished/noble (visesa Yes but the Buddha is also talking about what happens at death rather than the mind becoming lofty and noble for someone still living.

"Suppose a man were to throw a jar of ghee or a jar of oil into a deep lake of water, where it would break. There the shards & jar-fragments would go down, while the ghee or oil would rise upward and separate out.

In the same way, if one's mind has long been nurtured with conviction, nurtured with virtue, nurtured with learning, nurtured with relinquishment, nurtured with discernment,

then when the body... is eaten by crows, vultures, hawks, dogs, hyenas, or all sorts of creatures, nevertheless the mind... rises upward and separates out.

Have no fear, Mahanama! Have no fear! Your death will not be a bad one, your demise will not be bad.


My own interpretation from the the English translation of the sutta is that it might mean that with correct practice, at the death of the body, the unbound mind dissolves into space.

[aaaaaaahabbbby]

Hi

I'm very confused by this sutta. Is it implying that the mind and body are separated at the time of death?

[Mambattedge]

distinguished/noble (visesa)

This is very well put. Thank you...

The translation "separates out" is very misleading. Translators are inclined to interpret words according to their beliefs or prejudices. He tends to pick a different shade of the meaning, which enhances his point rather than selecting what makes more sense holistically. I say holistically because, saying the mind separates from the body is not very much in line with the rest of the Buddha's teachings as a whole.

As Element said, the translation of the word visesa is distinguished . It makes more sense. Even in sinhala language, the word visesa (pronounced as visesha) means "special" or "eminent". I think the word is a pali to sinhala absorption.

So, this is spot on:

but the Buddha simply & literally said here: "if the mind has long been nurtured with conviction, nurtured with virtue, nurtured with learning, nurtured with relinquishment, nurtured with discernment then this leads (gamani) the mind (citta) to becoming (hoti) lofty (uddha) and distinguished/noble (visesa)

[ReginaPerss]

Hi

I'm very confused by this sutta. Is it implying that the mind and body are separated at the time of death?

Please read post #3

[Zvmwissq]

but the Buddha simply & literally said here: "if the mind has long been nurtured with conviction, nurtured with virtue, nurtured with learning, nurtured with relinquishment, nurtured with discernment then this leads (gamani) the mind (citta) to becoming (hoti) lofty (uddha) and distinguished/noble (visesa)

OK thanks Deshy.

On reflection I don't think there's a lot of point in people who don't understand Pali attempting to taking part in a topic like this, because if one doesn't understand Pali, then theres nothing that can actually be discussed.

So how does this relate to death which is also mentioned in the sutta.? (Question meant for someone who is studying Pali, please )

It seems very basic to have a sutta which is just saying that if the mind is lofty/ noble then one will have a good death.

One also doesn't even need to be practising the Dharma to be able to figure out that if one has an accepting, calm mind then it would make the suffering of death easier.

[N9NACzws]

I don't think there's a lot of point in people who don't understand Pali attempting to taking part in a topic like this, because if one doesn't understand Pali, then theres nothing that can actually be discussed.

Resources are all over the Internet and offline. It doesn't take that much effort to look up the meaning of a word and make a sensible judgement based on the context and the Buddha's teachings as a whole.

The word visesa has several meanings. Distinction/separation does not fit in here. I think the more commonly used meaning is eminence given the fact that it is absorbed so by other languages which are influenced by pali. The word eminence makes more sense to me in this sutta. Thus the comment.

So how does this relate to death which is also mentioned in the sutta.? (Question meant for someone who is studying Pali, please )

Studying pali or not, it is unlikely the Buddha is suggesting the mind's separation from the physical body after death or the mind's existance separate from the physical body. Do you know of other suttas where the Buddha could be suggesting such a thing?

[dittygari]

Do you know of other suttas where the Buddha could be suggesting such a thing?

No I don't, because I've only got the book of B. Bodhi's MN sutta translations and an AN anthology. Other than that I just browse suttas sites occasionally for any others - no time for much extra reading at the moment.

[ToifvT5S]

No I don't, because I've only got the book of B.Bodhi's MN sutta translations and an AN anthology. Other than that I just browse suttas sites occasionally for any others - no time for much extra reading at the moment.

Nonetheless, there are so many other suttas where the Buddha explains the benefits of a developed mind, inclined towards virture, relinquishment and discernment, to be experienced in this life. Therefore, it is my best judgement that he does not make an exception here. To say that he suggests the mind's separation from the body is not in line with his teachings as a whole and based on a possible misinterpretation of pali.

[BgpOoGI2]

OK fine ..... I was just exploring a little, lol !

[saumemeva]

I know

[nTDsD0aU]

All i can say is welldone for finding this.

[ftqwhbvxlcfop]

yes. it would be expected the discursive imagination would construe this sutta to be similar to Vajrayana Phowa

but the Buddha simply & literally said here: "if the mind has long been nurtured with conviction, nurtured with virtue, nurtured with learning, nurtured with relinquishment, nurtured with discernment then this leads (gamani) the mind (citta) to becoming (hoti) lofty (uddha) and distinguished/noble (visesa)

although literal 'rebirth' may be imagined, it appears this is not present in that Sutta. it appears literal 'rebirth' is being inferred, as explained in AN 2.23 & AN 2.25

I am sorry but what you are saying is that the phrase "rises upward and separates out" (uddhagāmi hoti visesagāmi). Should be translated "Becomes lofty and noble" rigth?

So the interpretation of the sutta you quoted in the beginning would then be: (correct me if I am wrong) See the changes in Bold type


Have no fear, Mahanama! Have no fear! Your death will not be a bad one, your demise will not be bad. If one's mind has long been nurtured with conviction, nurtured with virtue, nurtured with learning, nurtured with relinquishment, nurtured with discernment, then when the body — endowed with form, composed of the four primary elements, born from mother & father, nourished with rice & porridge, subject to inconstancy, rubbing, pressing, dissolution & dispersion — is eaten by crows, vultures, hawks, dogs, hyenas, or all sorts of creatures, nevertheless the mind — long nurtured with conviction, nurtured with virtue, learning, relinquishment & discernment —Becomes lofty and noble.

Suppose a man were to throw a jar of ghee or a jar of oil into a deep lake of water, where it would break. There the shards & jar-fragments would go down, while the ghee or oil would Becomes lofty and noble. In the same way, if one's mind has long been nurtured with conviction, nurtured with virtue, nurtured with learning, nurtured with relinquishment, nurtured with discernment, then when the body... is eaten by crows, vultures, hawks, dogs, hyenas, or all sorts of creatures, nevertheless the mind... Becomes lofty and noble.



So during the body being eaten by different animals the mind becomes lofty and noble?

That sounds not at all logical to me.

What does it even mean? Why would anybody care how noble the mind becomes while ones body is eaten by animals?

No sorry I cant see it. But I am open for suggestions.

And on a second thought what about the Ghee becomming lofty and noble? What is noble about Ghee? Is it not much more logical that the Ghee which is fat will rise in the water, keeping seperate from it as the shards sink to the bottom? And that that is the meaning of the sutta to be applied also to the mind at this passage?

/Victor

[DoctorTentonyya]

Yes but the Buddha is also talking about what happens at death rather than the mind becoming lofty and noble for someone still living.




My own interpretation from the the English translation of the sutta is that it might mean that with correct practice, at the death of the body, the unbound mind dissolves into space.

Hi Aloka,

THIS is the reason why I am against certain "buddhists" stating that Nibbanna is only a "psychological state/philosophical frame of mind."

It is not, as the concept of rebirth undermines the above statement, which actually degrades Nibbana to a "brain bound concept." This is not to say that at least something can't be said about what Nibbana actually is. If a person can communicate metaphor, simile and analogy being abstractions work and Nibbana was described like that exactly by the Buddha along with the Buddha stating that it's "fruit" is for here and now also.

This verse actually proves that the Vajrayana Phowa concept, not practice necessarily, is part of Buddhadhamma.

Thank you,
Stefos