[anaisdannyxys]

Hi

I believe there has been a very noticable increase in monks who are prepared to wipe the slate clean and look more to the 'original' teachings of the Buddha, that is sutta/vinaya to be their guiding light rather than rely on later expositions. Obviously the internet has enlightened peoples awareness of the differing views held by monks and maybe these differences have been there since the early Buddhist councils.

With this in mind does anybody envisage that a Sutta/Vinaya subset of Theravada could come in to being as an 'organised institution'?

Would it be possible for an organised sub-group to exist within the Theravada tradition, a group who actually deny the authenticity of at least a third of the Tripitaka and possibly portions of the Khuddaka Nikaya all of which the Theravada tradition regard as authorative?

Metta

Brizzy

P.S. I am thinking of teachers like Bhante Dhammavuddho, Bhante Vimalaramsi, Thanissaro Bhikkhu and Bhante Punnaji.

[BoboStin]

With this in mind does anybody envisage that a Sutta/Vinaya subset of Theravada could come in to being as an 'organised institution'?

Brizzy

Imo, impossible, because everyone's interpretation is different.

Buddhist history started with the very same suttas but the myriad schools arose due to myriad idiosyncratic interpretations.

All the best

[craditc]

We can start with the myriad translations of the Buddha's 1st sermon.

One would think that being the 1st sermon of the Buddha, the words therein would be revered & honored and after 2,500 years a consensus would be reached out of reverence & holy respect.

But that seems to not be the case.

Now this, bhikkhus, for the spiritually ennobled ones, is the true reality which is pain: birth is painful, aging is painful, illness is painful, death is painful; sorrow, lamentation, physical pain, unhappiness and distress are painful; union with what is disliked is painful; separation from what is liked is painful; not to get what one wants is painful; in brief, the five bundles of grasping-fuel are painful.

Harvey Suffering, as a noble truth, is this: Birth is suffering, aging is suffering, sickness is suffering, death is suffering, sorrow and lamentation, pain, grief and despair are suffering; association with the loathed is suffering, dissociation from the loved is suffering, not to get what one wants is suffering — in short, suffering is the five categories of clinging objects .

Ñanamoli Thera Now this, monks, is the noble truth of stress: Birth is stressful, aging is stressful, death is stressful; sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair are stressful; association with the unbeloved is stressful, separation from the loved is stressful, not getting what is wanted is stressful. In short, the five clinging-aggregates are stressful.

Thanissaro Bhikkhu The Noble Truth of Suffering (dukkha), monks, is this: Birth is suffering, aging is suffering, sickness is suffering, death is suffering, association with the unpleasant is suffering, dissociation from the pleasant is suffering, not to receive what one desires is suffering — in brief the five aggregates subject to grasping are suffering.

Piyadassi Thera

[DoctorAlexandro]

I believe there has been a very noticable increase in monks who are prepared to wipe the slate clean...

The basic problem with Theravada Buddhism is it was hijacked by Brahmanism a long time ago & this continues to be the case. The monks are unwilling to desist from tainting most of the teachings with the flavour of reincarnation/rebirth.

The sutta below is interesting, given each translator I have read, be it Bodhi, Thanissaro, Piya Tan, Nanananda, Dhammanando, etc, have translated it to accord with rebirth belief.

The original Theravada commentaries translated this correctly, i.e., with 'dhamma' translated as 'dhamma practises'.

But the modern translators insist on the flavour of Nibbana as the end of reincarnations, despite the senseless translation.

[Incorrect translation:]

All phenomena [such as rocks & solar systems] are rooted in desire.

All (sabbe) phenomena (dhamma) come into play through attention.

All phenomena have contact as their origination.

All phenomena [such as rocks & solar systems] have feeling as their meeting place.

All phenomena [such as rocks & solar systems] have concentration as their presiding state.

All phenomena [such as rocks & solar systems] have mindfulness as their governing principle.

All phenomena [such as rocks & solar systems] have discernment as their surpassing state.

All phenomena [such as rocks & solar systems] have release as their heartwood.

All phenomena [such as rocks & solar systems] gain their footing in the deathless.

All phenomena [such as rocks & solar systems] have Nibbana as their final end.



Mula Sutta: Rooted [Correct translation:]

All dhamma practises are rooted in zeal (chanda iddhipada).

All dhamma practises come into play through attention.

All dhamma practises have contact as their origination.

All dhamma practises converge on feelings.

All dhamma practises have concentration as their presiding state.

All dhamma practises are governed by mindfulness.

All dhamma practises have discernment as their surpassing state.

All dhamma practises have liberation as their heartwood.

All dhamma practises gain a footing in the deathless.

All dhamma practises have Nibbana as their culmination/fulfilment.



Mula Sutta: Rooted

[g4YthYXx]

The basic problem with Theravada Buddhism is it was hijacked by Brahmanism a long time ago & this continues to be the case. The monks are unwilling to desist from tainting most of the teachings with the flavour of reincarnation/rebirth.

MN 28 reports:

Now, the Blessed One has said: "Whoever sees dependent co-arising sees the Dhamma; whoever sees the Dhamma sees dependent co-arising."

And these things — the five aggregates clung to [as 'self'] — are dependently co-arisen. Any desire, embracing, grasping & holding-on to these five clung to aggregates is the origination of stress. Any subduing of desire & passion, any abandoning of desire & passion for these five clung to aggregates is the cessation of stress. Yet the monk continue to insist dependent co-arising explains reincarnation (despite the suttas explaining it is simply about the arising of the desire, embracing, grasping & holding-on that generates mental suffering).

[Eugen80]

Hi Element,

Thanks for replying. I don't see anything wrong with the differently translated suttas that can't be put down to an evolving English language. As for your 'rocks & solar systems' I think it means aggregates as your link actually suggests.

You are preaching to the unconvertible, I am busily accumulating merit for my next 'existence'.

You are right in that people will always have different interpretations as is seen within Theravada today. I was just wondering if anybody could envisage a 'fundamentalist Sutta/Vinaya' group ever sprouting up within Theravada or indeed has it already done so and they are just regarded as an oddity. A bit like the embarrassing relative who nobody likes to talk about but nobody has the nerve to tell them to bugger off.

Metta

Brizzy

[voksveta]

'fundamentalist Sutta/Vinaya'

an oddity

embarrassing relative

nobody has the nerve to tell them to bugger off

It's a bitter pill to swallow isn't it?

[gortusbig]

I don't see anything wrong with the differently translated suttas that can't be put down to an evolving English language. As for your 'rocks & solar systems' I think it means aggregates as your link actually suggests.

hi Brizzy

You are contradicting yourself, here. You have demonstrated why a consensus cannot be reached.

Rocks & solar systems are part of the aggregates, given they are "form".

Buddha taught:

You are preaching to the unconvertible, I am busily accumulating merit for my next 'existence'.

If you are busy accumulating merit for your next 'existence' then the suttas are not for you and to slander the suttas, like was done above, cannot be the source of merit, but, instead, the source of demerit. You are not helping others & you are not helping yourself. Instead, you are making obstacles to yourself and making obstacles to others.

Making merit requires giving to charity, giving to monks, following the five precepts, etc. Suttas are not required for these things.

You are right in that people will always have different interpretations as is seen within Theravada today.

Yes, Element was right in that people will always have different interpretations. However, you failed to acknowledge Element was also right in his translation of the Mula Sutta. The Buddha said:

I was just wondering if anybody could envisage a 'fundamentalist Sutta/Vinaya' group ever sprouting up within Theravada or indeed has it already done so and they are just regarded as an oddity. A bit like the embarrassing relative who nobody likes to talk about but nobody has the nerve to tell them to bugger off.

Element is regarded as an 'oddity'. 'Oddity' = 'rare'. Buddha taught:

Rare in the world is the appearance of one who teaches the Dhamma and Discipline proclaimed by the Tathagata.

AN 6.96 Yet you disagreed with Element in relation to the Mula Sutta, with a senseless translation, where your position remained unexplained & unjustified.

[LOVEBoy]

I don't see anything wrong with the differently translated suttas that can't be put down to an evolving English language. As for your 'rocks & solar systems' I think it means aggregates as your link actually suggests.

There is an equivalent sutta. It means skilful dhammas, as follows:

“What, Samiddhi, is the conditioning basis of the purposive thoughts that arise in a person?”—”Name-and-form, venerable sir.”

“From what does their variety derive? —”From the elements.”

“What is their origin?” —”Contact.”

“On what do they converge?”—”Feeling.”

“What is their head?”—”Concentration.”

“What is their master?”—”Mindfulness.”

“What is their climax?”—”Wisdom.”

“What is their essence?”—”Liberation.”

“Where do they merge?”—”In the Deathless.”

“Well spoken, Samiddhi, well spoken! You have answered well the various questions put to you. But do not be proud of yourself on that account!”

AN 9.14 The word 'dhamma' in the Mula Sutta is as follows:

"O Bhikkhus. The footprints of all land-bound creatures fit within the footprint of the elephant; the elephant's footprint is said to be the supreme footprint in terms of size. Similarly all skilful dhammas have heedfulness as their base, converge within the bounds of heedfulness. Heedfulness may be said to be supreme amongst those dhammas." [S.V.43]

[ggiifdfalls]

The five aggregates does not make sense in the translation. Such a translation is senseless.

It asserts feelings, i.e., pleasant, painful & neither feelings, are rooted in chandha (desire).

It asserts feelings, i.e., pleasant, painful & neither feelings, gain a footing in the Deathless.

It asserts feelings, i.e., pleasant, painful & neither feelings, peak with concentration.

It asserts feelings, i.e., pleasant, painful & neither feelings, have wisdom as their supreme state.

It asserts feelings, i.e., pleasant, painful & neither feelings, converge on feelings.

Buddha taught:

Feelings & perception are the mind conditioner (citta sankhara). In other words, feeling & perception are the cause of chandha (desire). Desire is not the cause of feeling & perception but feeling & perception is the causes of desire. It follows feeling & perception cannot be rooted in desire.

Feelings do not have wisdom. Arahants feel & such feeling is unrelated to wisdom. If feeling was related to wisdom then wisdom would end feelings. About arahants, Buddha explained:

Here a bhikkhu is an arahant, one whose taints are destroyed, the holy life fulfilled, who has done what had to be done, laid down the burden, attained the goal, destroyed the fetters of being, completely released through final knowledge. However, his five sense faculties remain unimpaired, by which he still experiences what is agreeable and disagreeable and feels pleasure and pain. It is the extinction of attachment, hate, and delusion in him that is called the Nibbana-element.

Itivuttaka: The Group of Twos About wisdom in relation to the consciousness (rather than feeling) aggregate, it was explained:

Discernment & consciousness are conjoined, friend, not disjoined. It's not possible, having separated them one from the other, to delineate the difference between them. For what one discerns, that one cognizes. What one cognizes, that one discerns. Therefore these qualities are conjoined, not disjoined, and it is not possible, having separated them one from another, to delineate the difference between them.

MN 43 Feelings, i.e., pleasant, painful & neither feelings, do not converge on feelings. Instead, it is mindfulness & wisdom that converge on feelings, as Buddha explained:

When a bhikkhu has heard that nothing is worth clinging to, he directly knows everything; having directly known everything, he fully understands everything; having directly known everything, he fully understood everything.

Whatever feeling he feels, whether pleasant or painful or neither pleasant or painful, he abides contemplating (observing) impermanence in those feelings, contemplating (observing) fading away, contemplating (observing) cessation, contemplating (observing) relinquishment (letting go).

Contemplating (observing) thus, he does not cling (think about) to anything in the world. When he does not cling (think about), he is not agitated, he personally attains Nibbana. He understands: ‘Birth is destroyed, the holy life has been lived, there is no more coming to any state of being.’

Briefly, it is in this way, ruler of gods, that a bhikkhu is liberated in the destruction of craving, one who has reached the ultimate end, the ultimate security from bondage, the ultimate holy life, the ultimate goal, one who is foremost among gods and humans.

Culatanhasankhaya Sutta

[Bugamerka]

I don't see anything wrong with the differently translated suttas that can't be put down to an evolving English language. As for your 'rocks & solar systems' I think it means aggregates as your link actually suggests.

hi Brizzy

yes, you do not see anything wrong with your view.

the Mula Sutta explains all dhammas are rooted in chandha (zeal).

Zeal is the first of the Iddhipada. The Iddhipadda are 4 of the 37 Bodhipakkiya Dhammas, which include the 4 Iddhipada, 4 Satipatthana, 4 Right Efforts, Five Faculties, Five Powers, 7 Factors of Enlightenment and 8 Fold Path, as follows:

In this community of monks there are monks who remain devoted to the development of the four frames of reference... the four right exertions... the four bases of power... the five faculties... the five strengths... the seven factors for awakening... the noble eightfold path: such are the monks in this community of monks.

Anapanasati Sutta yet you seem to deny Buddha taught all of these 37 Bodhipakkiya Dhammas are rooted in zeal, the 1st Iddhipada, as Buddha explained:

Bhikkhus, those who have neglected the four bases for spiritual power [starting with zeal] have neglected the noble path leading to the complete destruction of suffering.

SN 51.2 There is the case where a monk develops the base of power endowed with concentration founded on chanda (zeal) & the fabrications of exertion, thinking, 'This zeal of mine will be neither overly sluggish nor overly active, neither inwardly restricted nor outwardly scattered.' He keeps perceiving what is in front & behind so that what is in front is the same as what is behind, what is behind is the same as what is in front. What is below is the same as what is above, what is above is the same as what is below. [He dwells] by night as by day, and by day as by night. By means of an awareness thus open & unhampered, he develops a brightened mind.

Iddhipada-vibhanga Sutta Furthermore, with the abandoning of pleasure & stress — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — Sariputta entered & remained in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither-pleasure-nor-pain. Whatever qualities there are in the fourth jhana — a feeling of equanimity, neither pleasure nor pain; an unconcern due to serenity of awareness; singleness of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness, zeal (chanda), decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity, & attention — he ferreted them out one after another. Known to him they arose, known to him they remained, known to him they subsided. He discerned, 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He discerned that 'There is a further escape,' and pursuing it there really was for him.

MN 111

[clitlyphype]

I don't see anything wrong with the differently translated suttas. You are preaching to the unconvertible.

the sutta states:

chandamūlakā sabbe dhammā

All dhamma are rooted in zeal (chanda).

nibbānapariyosānā sabbe dhammā

All dhamma have Nibbana as their culmination/fulfilment. Buddha explained:

Bhikkhus, if a bhikkhu gains concentration, gains one-pointedness of mind based upon chanda, this is called concentration due to chanda.

SN 51.13 Bhikkhus, these four bases for spiritual power [the 1st being chanda], when developed & cultivated, lead to utter revulsion, to dispassion, to cessation, to peace, to direct knowledge, to enlightenment, to Nibbana.

SN 51.4 Yet it was asserted the five aggregates are rooted in zeal; that the five aggregates lead to Nibbana; that you are unconvertible?

[JetePlentuara]

I don't see anything wrong with the differently translated suttas...

ok, Brizzy

let's move onto this:

...the five clinging-aggregates are stressful... how do the five aggregates cling? how are they clinging aggregates? how do we stop the aggregates from clinging?

how does the body cling? how does feeling cling? how does perception cling? how does thought function cling? how does consciousness, i.e., seeing , hearing, tasting, smelling, touching & mental cognition cling?

or is clinging to the five aggegrates stressful? does the mind cling to what is seen, heard, smelt, etc, rather than seeing, hearing, smelling, etc, doing the clinging?

what is doing the clinging? (a) the five aggregates; or (b) the ignorant functioning of one of the aggregrates?

what is stressful? (a) the five aggregates clinging? or (b) clinging to the five aggregates?

[PristisoliTer]

Hi Brizzy

If a Theravada Buddhist was to start deny the Buddhas teachings, would he then be a Buddhist at all? A real and true Monks who belong to the Theravada would probably stay in his course and follow that path, because he knows that if he start wander and try to not understand he will never reach nibbana. I am a lay Buddhist in the Theravada tradition and those things i dont understand i will go back to the old text and read them to find the answers there. I never read any of the new written texts of todays Monks.

The thinker

[EnvellFen]

go back to the old text and read them to find the answers there.

Yes. But the old texts are translations & we may not know the meanings of words as Buddha spoke them.

For example, the Visiddhimagga is a text from the 5th century. The meaning of words in Visiddhimagga is probably far more accurate than our knowledge today.

Now, this word birth (játi) has many meanings.

For in the passage “[He recollects … ] one birth (játi), two births” (D I 81) it is becoming.

In the passage, “Visákhá, there is a kind (játi) of ascetics called Niganthas (Jains)” (A I 206) it is a monastic order.

In the passage, “Birth (játi) is included in two aggregates” (Dhátuk 15) it is the characteristic of whatever is formed.

In the passage, “His birth is due to the first consciousness arisen, the first cognition manifested, in the mother’s womb” (Vin I 93) it is rebirth-linking.

In the passage “As soon as he was born (sampatijáta), Ánanda, the Bodhisatta …” (M III 123) it is parturition.

In the passage “One who is not rejected and despised on account of birth” (A III 152) it is clan.

In the passage “Sister, since I was born with the noble birth” (M II 103) it is the Noble One’s virtue.

Visiddhumagga So, the question arises, when we read the word 'birth' in the translations of the old texts, for example, what does it mean to us?

[ireleda]

Hi Element

In my view the word birth can mean more then one thing just as you described with the quot you have.
To me birth can be when a human get born but it can also mean a new moment/situation was born.

But then again for me the question arise , do we actually get born?? maybe we always are, just not as a human but the feeling we have of being alive, maybe its also when we not have a physical body???

So we have the old text in pali or in english. But we still have to find the truth within this texts so i think everyone can have a bit different view on all this. and that is normal )

Hope this made some sense hehe

Best regards The thinker

[viagbloggerz]

But we still have to find the truth within this texts so i think everyone can have a bit different view on all this. and that is normal )

naturally

[minowz]

Hi,
there is a certain amount of common believe in theravada and what we might call mahajana.
Shurely the Teravada people stop with Nibbanam and think that there is nothing more. Mahajanas think that there is a Here and a Beyond.
Each one is right. I prefer no scool, just Pali-Canon, my Guru is Gotamo Buddho and this was very succesfull, as i am able to enter
and leave brahamic worlds at will.

anando