[citicroego]

Greetings to all,

I have some questions I am hoping you might be able to help with. I was reading about the Arupa Jhanas in a book by Dean Hayson and then I did a search on Jhana and found your site. I decided to post here rather than in the meditation section as my questions relate to the Theravada Nikayas. My apologies in advance if you have already discussed these points.

Reading about the progression of the jhanas, the different levels of absorption, in AN 9.35, i have the impression that there is (referring to Samatha Jhana practice) the cessation of concepts/conceptual thinking in the 2nd Jhana and then in the 8th Jhana the awareness of perceptions seems to be fading out "neither perception nor non-perception" and then in the 9th Jhana there is the cessation of percepts/perception.

My initial questions are about whether i have understood these jhana experiences correctly:
Is the 8th Jhana a twilight of perception where the meditator finds it hard to tell whether he/she is perceiving?
Is the 9th Jhana's "cessation of perception" a mind without conscious activity aka blank?

Regards,
Troy Asher

[BliliBoopsy]

...the cessation of concepts/conceptual thinking in the 2nd Jhana....

My initial questions are about whether i have understood these jhana experiences correctly:
Is the 8th Jhana a twilight of perception where the meditator finds it hard to tell whether he/she is perceiving?
Is the 9th Jhana's "cessation of perception" a mind without conscious activity aka blank?

welcome Troy

on this subject, we have conviction in Ajahn Brahm's book: Mindfulness, Bliss and Beyond, and based on his explanation, the answers to your questions are "yes".

much of AB's book can be researched here. just place 'cessation' or other words into the search ('Go') box

as for your description of what ceases in the 2nd jhana, it is something far more subtle than that. "concepts/conceptual thinking" as a description of the Pali words vitakka & vicara is far from the reality of the 1st jhana.

again, Ajahn Brahm basically explains this to our satisfaction, where he describes the jhana "wobble"

kind regards

element


Ajahn Brahm said:

The Wobble (Vitakka and Vicara)

All jhanas are states of unmoving bliss, almost. However, in the first jhana, there is some movement discernible. I call this movement the “wobble” of first jhãna. One is aware of great bliss, so powerful it has subdued completely the part of the ego that wills and does. In jhana, one is on automatic pilot, as it were, with no sense of being in control. However, the bliss is so delicious that it can generate a small residue of attachment. The mind instinctively grasps at the bliss. Because the bliss of the first jhana is fuelled by letting go, such involuntary grasping weakens the bliss. Seeing the bliss weaken, the mind automatically lets go of its grasping, and the bliss increases in power again. The mind then grasps again, then go again. Such subtle involuntary movement gives rise to the wobble of the first jhana.

This process can be perceived in another way. As the bliss weakens because of the involuntary grasping, it seems as if mindfulness [the mind] moves a small distance away from the bliss. Then the mindfulness [the mind] gets pulled back into the bliss as the mind automatically lets go. This back—and-forth movement is a second way of describing the wobble.

This wobble is, in fact, the pair of first jhana factors called vitakka and vicãra. Vitakka is the automatic movement back into the bliss; vicãra is the involuntary grasping of the bliss. Some commentators explain vitakka and vicãra as “initial thought” and “sustained thought:’ While in other contexts this pair can refer to thought, in jhana they certainly mean something else. It is impossible that such a gross activity as thinking can exist in such a refined state as jhana. In fact, thinking ceases a long time prior to jhana. In jhana, vitakka and vicãra are both subverbal and so do not qualify as thought. Vitakka is the subverbal movement of mind back into the bliss. Vicara is the subverhal movement of mind that holds on to the bliss. Outside of jhana, such movements of mind will often generate thought, and sometimes speech. But in jhana, vitakka and vicira are too subtle to create any thought. All they are capable of doing is moving mindfulness [the mind] back into the bliss and holding mindfulness [the mind] there. Commentary by Element:

In my opinion, AB may have not used the term 'mindfulness' accurately & correctly above. Possibly the word 'mindfulness' should be replaced with 'the mind'.

Correctly, AB states vitakka is the automatic movement back into the bliss and vicãra is the involuntary grasping of the bliss.

But the wholesome path factor of mindfulness [recollection] serves the function of releasing the grasping to the bliss & moving the mind back away from the bliss (i.e., maintaining the mind in a spacious non-attached relationship with the bliss).

In other words, it is the mind (rather than 'mindfulness') that gets pulled by vitakka & vicara towards the bliss. Then, when mindfulness discerns vitakka & vicara pulling the mind towards the bliss; mindfulness releases/liberates the mind from its grasping.

Thus, vitakka & vicara, fuelled by ignorance, move [the mind] towards & grasp the bliss. Then mindfulness, as a path factor, guided by wisdom, engages letting go, which moves the mind away from the bliss.

Thus, as described in MN 111, (right) perception, (right) intention, (right) zeal, (right) decision, (right) mindfulness, etc, maintain the mind in the vision of Nibbana (escape) rather than allow vitakka & vicara to become pre-occupied with the bliss. MN 111

There was the case where Sariputta — quite secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful qualities — entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by directed vitakka & vicara. Whatever qualities there are in the first jhana — vitakka, vicara, rapture, pleasure, singleness of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness, zeal, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity & attention — he ferreted them out one after another. Known to him they arose, known to him they remained, known to him they subsided. He discerned, 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He discerned that 'There is a further escape,' and pursuing it there really was for him.

[AllAdobeOEMSoftDownload]

MN 111 can also assist here, in that it describes the ending of perceptible mental factors in the 8th jhana.

in each jhana, except the 8th, there are the mental (nama) qualities of singleness of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness, zeal, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity & attention.

also, refer to the footnote commentary for the 8th jhana.

best wishes

[qd0vhq4f]

Greetings to all,

Is the 8th Jhana a twilight of perception where the meditator finds it hard to tell whether he/she is perceiving?
Is the 9th Jhana's "cessation of perception" a mind without conscious activity aka blank?

Yes, neither perception nor non-perception is again a perception. (Ref: Ajahn Brahm's book: Mindfulness, Bliss and Beyond)

Beyond the 8th jhana is norodha samapatti, where all perceptions and feelings end. My assumption after some study of documented information/scripture is that the mind as a sense organ is not active during this state. Basically, the mind stops. So there is no rational way for a person to perceive during this absorption. All sensory activities are shut off. Realization should happen when arising from this state; when the mind starts again. A person wakes from this state either as an anagami or an arahath according to books. Naturally, after getting direct experience as to how things build up, I don't think there can be any doubts left in the mind.

[carline]

Thank you Element and Deshy, your responses are appreciated.

I have another question if you don’t mind. This is in regards to how people perceive the 6th Jhana. In Leigh Brasington’s article “Sharpening Manjushri’s Sword” he makes a point of noting that “The Base of Infinite Consciousness has been mistaken for achieving oneness with all consciousness.” Leigh goes onto explain that the 6th Jhana is entered by “realizing that in order to gaze at an infinite spaciousness (5th Jhana) you must have an infinite consciousness, and then shifting your attention to that consciousness.” I get the point. This “realization” is a logical deduction and leads the meditator to the 6th Jhana.

However, I have found that in my personal, subjective, experience, my perception and feeling of the 6th Jhana is that of “oneness with all consciousness.” I’d describe it as “the perception of interconnectedness with all”. I also like this latter term as it lacks the supernormal abilities sometimes associated with the word “oneness”. There is no ability to communicate with or control all things, just a feeling of being interconnected with all.

For those that have worked through the arupas, what has been your experience ?

Regards,

Troy

[AOE6q4bu]

thanks Troy

personally, i cannot really help you with your questions. you seem to be attached to concepts & trying to match your experiences with these concepts. if your mind had actually experienced these immaterial jhanas, you would not be asking these questions because so much attachment would be dissolved. in any genuine jhana, especially an arupa jhana, the tendency to conceptualise & grasp is strongly or completely eradicated.

in short, doubt is eradicated at the 1st jhana. but your posting shows your mind still has doubt

however, i would suggest joining this chatsite and post your questions there. the folks at this chatsite talk about what they perceive to be their "personal" jhana experiences

kind regards

element

[ariniaxia]

Troy, have you tried talking to an experienced meditator offline?

I haven't experienced these deep absorptions myself but according to what I have read, this statement from Leigh Brasington seems somewhat credible:

realizing that in order to gaze at an infinite spaciousness (5th Jhana) you must have an infinite consciousness, and then shifting your attention to that consciousness. According to Ajhan Brahmn, the development from the 5th jhana to the 6th is a natural shift of perception as absorption deepens.

I am not sure what you mean by “oneness with all consciousness”. What is all consciousness anyway?

[MatueHarton]

thanks Troy

personally, i cannot really help you with your questions. you seem to be attached to concepts & trying to match your experiences with these concepts. if your mind had actually experienced these immaterial jhanas, you would not be asking these questions because so much attachment would be dissolved. in any genuine jhana, especially an arupa jhana, the tendency to conceptualise & grasp is strongly or completely eradicated.

in short, doubt is eradicated at the 1st jhana. but your posting shows your mind still has doubt

however, i would suggest joining this chatsite and post your questions there. the folks at this chatsite talk about what they perceive to be their "personal" jhana experiences

kind regards

element

If you can't personally help me with my question about the 6th Jhana that is ok. I thank you for your previous help.

[DJElizardo]

Troy, have you tried talking to an experienced meditator offline?

I haven't experienced these deep absorptions myself but according to what I have read, this statement from Leigh Brasington seems somewhat credible:



According to Ajhan Brahmn, the development from the 5th jhana to the 6th is a natural shift of perception as absorption deepens.

I am not sure what you mean by “oneness with all consciousness”. What is all consciousness anyway?

Hi Deshy,

I respect Leigh Brasington's opinions. Leigh has written that "The Base of Infinite Consciousness has been mistaken for achieving oneness with all consciousness". I think the term "oneness with all consciousness" entered the vocabulary of the 60's counter culture with the return of those who had gone on spiritual quests to India. I agree with you that it is a fairly non-descript and ambiguous term. I prefer to say "the perception of interconnectedness with all".

Dean Hayson describes the case where "The ego, the image of individual identity, dissolves away as our consciousness merges with all other things. The reality of interdependence, that there is no separation between things, that “all is connected”, is experienced."

I have had this experience and wonder whether it equates to the 6th Jhana ? Leigh says it is not but I am wondering what other people think ?

All this reminds me of the joke about the Dalai Lama and the hot dog vendor. The vendor asks what he wants and the Dalai Lama says "make me one with everything".

Regards,

Troy

[russmodel]

I respect Leigh Brasington's opinions.

Leigh's opinion below does not represent the 1st jhana or how to attain it. instead, it is a kind of self-induced 'laughing yoga'

Once access concentration has been established, you now induce the next factor of the first Jhana. This third factor is called Piti and is variously translated as delight, euphoria, rapture and ecstasy. By shifting your attention from the meditation subject to a pleasant sensation, particularly a pleasant physical sensation, and doing nothing more than not becoming distracted from the pleasant sensation, you will "automatically" enter the first Jhana. As far as I have been able to determine, based on my own experience, the entry into the first Jhana from a physiological perspective proceeds something like this:

1) You quiet your mind with sustained attention to the meditation subject. I suspect that brain wave activity shows a noticeable decrease during access concentration.

2) By shifting your attention to a pleasant sensation, you set up a positive reinforcement feedback loop within your quiet mind. For example, one of the most useful pleasant sensations to focus on is a smile. The act of smiling generates endorphins, which make you feel good, which makes you smile more, which generates more endorphins, etc.

3) The final and most difficult part of entering the first Jhana is to not do anything but observe the pleasure. Any attempt to increase the pleasure, even any thoughts of wanting to increase the pleasure, interrupt the feedback loop and drop you into a less quiet state of mind. But by doing nothing but focusing intently on the pleasure, you are propelled into an unmistakably altered state of consciousness. jhana is not attained via 'sustained attention' on a meditation object, such as breathing or a pleasant sensation. although such methods can certainly induce rapture, this kind of rapture is called momentary rapture because it does not arise from jhanic concentration

jhana is attained via letting go; that is, making letting go the object of meditation.

any wilful attempt to 'sustain attention' on an object or 'shift attention' is simply too gross an activity to lead to jhana

buddha taught:

There is the case where a monk, a noble disciple, making it his object to let go, attains concentration, attains singleness of mind.

SN 48.10 kind regards

[sestomosi]

Hi,
i´m not usual in Theravada but i do know about the 8 janas. These eight jhnas are also refered in the Dighanikayo, the longer collection of the three books. What a theravada should consider, that the sixth jana, there are two more behind nibbanam.
literature Neumann, Kar-Eugenie Reden Gotamo Buddhos, Dighanikayo, S. 260, Shri Lanca edition in Pali,page 141.

anando

[BorBitExatini]

Hi,
i´m not usual in Theravada but i do know about the 8 janas. These eight jhnas are also refered in the Dighanikayo, the longer collection of the three books. What a theravada should consider, that the sixth jana, there are two more behind nibbanam.
literature Neumann, Kar-Eugenie Reden Gotamo Buddhos, Dighanikayo, S. 260, Shri Lanca edition in Pali,page 141.

anando

There are only four rupa jhanas. Others are called the four immaterial attainments, which are not essential to nibbana.

[Enfotanab]

What a theravada should consider, that the sixth jana, there are two more behind nibbanam.

I don't think this is correct. According to suttas, the Buddha only talked about 4 jhanas and others were merely referred to as "entered & remained in the dimension of..." The four jhanas were later named as rupa jhanas for clarity and to be distinguished from the four immaterial attainments/formless jhana/arupa jhana (named so in commentaries) which follow the fourth jhana.

According to suttas, it seems possible to attain liberation with only the first four jhanas.

[ditpiler]

Yes, neither perception nor non-perception is again a perception. (Ref: Ajahn Brahm's book: Mindfulness, Bliss and Beyond)

Beyond the 8th jhana is norodha samapatti, where all perceptions and feelings end. My assumption after some study of documented information/scripture is that the mind as a sense organ is not active during this state. Basically, the mind stops. So there is no rational way for a person to perceive during this absorption. All sensory activities are shut off. Realization should happen when arising from this state; when the mind starts again. A person wakes from this state either as an anagami or an arahath according to books. Naturally, after getting direct experience as to how things build up, I don't think there can be any doubts left in the mind.

hi deshy,
i've read somewhere (can't recall) that nirodha samapatti(ninth jhana) can be experienced with access concentration and that the jhanas are not entirely necessary for this to occur.
i believe the first time one experiences nirodha samapatti it may be sudden and last but a few mind moments, i read that this is called GLIMPSING nibbana and when the mind starts again and the senses come back on-line this person is sotapanna(the lowest degree of saints) 3 fetters have been extinguished identity view, doubt, clinging to rites and rituals.
with further practice one may then REALIZE nibbana (stronger experience so to speak) this time when the senses come back on-line this person will be either an arahant or anagami and will be able to drink from the stream at will so to speak.
does this agree with anything you may have read previously,
lala

[flanna.kersting]

i've read somewhere (can't recall) that nirodha samapatti (ninth jhana) can be experienced with access concentration and that the jhanas are not entirely necessary for this to occur.

this is the first time i have read this, that 9th can occur without 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th & 8th

when the body, by nature, defecates by going to the toilet, the purpose of this is to evacuate the bowels rather than cling to the feeling of pleasure that often arises when evacuating the bowels

similarly, jhanas naturally happen when the mind is in a purifying process. jhanas themselves have no instrinsic purpose in dhamma practise because the intrinsic purpose of dhamma practise is letting go; the same as the purpose of going to the toilet is letting go.

each time the mind clings to an experience, seeking to 'self-affirm' from it, this defeats the purpose of dhamma practise

i believe the first time one experiences nirodha samapatti it may be sudden and last but a few mind moments, i read that this is called GLIMPSING nibbana

Nibbana is the end of greed, hatred & delusion rather than the end of perception & feeling. for the fully enlightened, Nibbana is experienced in all circumstances, be it in meditation, in nirodha samapatti, out of nirodha samapatti, walking, talking, eating, going to toilet

when the mind starts again and the senses come back on-line this person is sotapanna (the lowest degree of saints) 3 fetters have been extinguished identity view, doubt, clinging to rites and rituals.

it is not like this in reality or in the scriptures. Mahasi Sayadaw disciples can have the above view but this has not basis in the scriptures or real experience. in real experience, the sotapanna has constant meditative insight into the 4NTs and the 3Cs

does this agree with anything you may have read previously

sure. Jason C posted such beliefs on this forum & I have listened to Mahasi Sayadaw disciples speak this way. it is obvious they are all similarly brainwashed & speaking in a superstitious manner from blind faith

any mind that clings to experience & ignores Buddha is unenlightened. Buddha taught:

He perceives the dimension of neither-perception-nor-non-perception as the dimension of neither-perception-nor-non-perception. Perceiving the dimension of neither-perception-nor-non-perception as the dimension of neither-perception-nor-non-perception, he conceives things about the dimension of neither-perception-nor-non-perception, he conceives things in the dimension of neither-perception-nor-non-perception, he conceives things coming out of the dimension of neither-perception-nor-non-perception, he conceives the dimension of neither-perception-nor-non-perception as 'mine', he delights in the dimension of neither-perception-nor-non-perception. Why is that? Because he has not comprehended it, I tell you.

MN 1

[bp9QxekG]

i've read somewhere (can't recall) that nirodha samapatti(ninth jhana) can be experienced with access concentration and that the jhanas are not entirely necessary for this to occur.

Well, nirodha samapatti is a very deep level of absorption. I cannot fathom how a mind attends to it without first going through the jhanas.

Imo, you are possibly misinterpreting the commentaries here. Some commentaries say that any realization which happens to a meditator in this state, does happen when the mind arises from it (access concentration) rather than when absorbed in it. This conclusion is only logical since nirodha samapatti is cessation of perception and feeling. However, this conclusion is again not explicit in the suttas but in the commentaries. You seem to be interpreting this as "jhana is not required for nirodha samapati."

i believe the first time one experiences nirodha samapatti it may be sudden and last but a few mind moments, i read that this is called GLIMPSING nibbana and when the mind starts again and the senses come back on-line this person is sotapanna(the lowest degree of saints) 3 fetters have been extinguished identity view, doubt, clinging to rites and rituals.

Again in commentaries, it is mentioned that a person arising from this state is either anagami or arahath. Is what you describe here supported in suttas? For sothapanna state, it doesn't seem like jhana is even needed.

Either way, the suttas do NOT give any special importance to nirodha samapatti in terms of complete cessation because it is not talked about as something essential but rather as additional. The Buddha has said it is possible to attain nibbana with the first 4 jhanas.

[Xtatotvk]

Again in commentaries, it is mentioned that a person arising from this state is either anagami or arahath. Is what you describe here supported in suttas? For sothapanna state, it doesn't seem like jhana is even needed.

It is common for human beings to become immersed in religious cults, where there is no objectivity, no critical thinking & no respect for the original teachings or for the history of the spiritual discipline.

As is universally accepted, the first stream enterer was Kondanna, upon hearing the first sermon about the Four Noble Truths. Identical stream entries were reported for Sariputta (Upatissa) and the householder Upali. Upon hearing the Four Noble Truths, about birth, aging, decay & death; about separation from the loved; and about the cessation of craving & becoming, each stream enterer realised: "What is subject to arising is subject to cessation".

Naturally, such stream entry was unrelated to nirodha samapatti or hallucinations of believing one has experienced nirodha samapatti when one has not.

Either way, the suttas do NOT give any special importance to nirodha samapatti in terms of complete cessation because it is not talked about as something essential but rather as additional. The Buddha has said it is possible to attain nibbana with the first 4 jhanas.

Naturally

[paralelogram]

Naturally, such stream entry was unrelated to nirodha samapatti or hallucinations of believing one has experienced nirodha samapatti when one has not.

Actually, I will be surprised if a teacher even talks about nirodha samapatti. Most meditation masters I have referred to don't talk about anything more than the jhanas. The only person I remember so far who refers to it is AB but I don't think he gives it any importance but merely mentions it for completeness.

Even if you take commentaries, there are a lot of disputes as to what nirodha samapatti is. Some say the citta completely stops while others say bhavanga exists in this state. The former seems more possible according to suttas though.

Either way, I don't think many of the commentaries are based on actual experiences of nirodha samapatti but merely logical inferences.