[Zdfjpbth]

http://www.buddhistlibraryonline.net...ahapadana.html

I read in another source (I don't know where) basically the same hierarchy of causation and it brought to mind certain feelings and questions which I'd like to discuss.

I'm zooming in on this basic part of the text:

20. ' Then to Vipassi the Bodhisat, brethren, this occurred : — " What now being absent, is decay and dying also absent ; by the ceasing of what does decay and dying cease ? " Then, brethren, from attention to the cause arose the conviction through reason : — " Where birth is absent, decay and dying are absent ; when birth ceases, decay and dying cease . . . Where becoming is absent, birth is absent ; when becoming- ceases, birth ceases . . . Where grasping is absent, becoming is absent ; when grasping ceases, becoming ceases . . . Where craving is absent, grasping is absent ; when craving ceases, grasping ceases . . . [34] Where feeling is absent, craving is absent ; when feeling ceases, craving ceases . . . Where contact is absent, feeling is absent ; when contact ceases, feeling ceases . . . Where the sixfold field is absent, contact is absent ; when the sixfold field ceases, contact ceases . . . Where name-and-form is absent, the sixfold field is absent ; when name-and-form ceases, the sixfold field ceases . . . W T here cognition is absent, name-and-form is absent ; when cognition ceases, name-and-form ceases . . . Where name-and-form is absent, cognition is absent ; when name-and-form ceases, cognition ceases." There's a lot of different things that arise in me as I read this. I know they can't be the most proper interpretations but I need to be honest with how I am taking this discourse.

I get feelings of Nihlism and as well a longing for something beyond the cycle of birth and death. The only thing I know that exists outside of my paradigm is death - so I basically long for something that can only be expressed in the word death.

I basically conclude we exist because we longed to exist as an entity. I see name-and-form as ego. Suffering comes from the need to exist as a person with a name and attributes.

The problem is - we are still here. We all have names and forms. We already have been born.

The questions that arise in my mind are - do we want to exist? to exist to me is to suffer. To have passion - is to suffer.

I personally want to exist. I want to have passion. I want to have drive. These things bite back at me if I take in what I'm learning by surveying Buddhist thought.

Contradictory to what I want to do, I feel a beautiful solace in this idea of nirvana where birth and death cease to exist. I just can't wrap my mind around what it is - and it seems I'm not even supposed to be able to. So I just equate Nirvana with death even though Nirvana is something beyond death.

I'm sorry if I'm not making sense as I'm touching on areas that don't really have words to express them properly.

Thanks for reading,

[SeelaypeKet]

Have a look at this:

Buddhists also believe that it is this transcendence that all religions describe as union with God. Buddhists call it “Awakening from the Dream of Existence.” The normal consciousness is aware of a “Self existing in the World;” while the Supernormal consciousness is aware of the mental process that creates this “world” and the “self” in it, through the process of perception. By becoming aware of the process of perception, the reality of the “world” and the “self” is lost. This is the awakening from the dream of existence.

http://www.protobuddhism.com/index.p...d=55&Itemid=62

[Donadoni1809]

Hello Gerrardthor
The Buddha emphasised a middle way between nihilism and eternalism, stressing that both views would lead to discontentment (dukkha). This I pick up on as someting you are explaining in your own words, in your post above. One reason why the nihilist view leads to discontentment is as you say, it leads to no value in existing. This sense or feeling of no value is just a feeling and hence is subject to change and it has be born into existence through thinking. It is a wrong view which will lead to further suffering; as it is contrary to Buddha's teaching we must push on in our investigation.

One reason why eternalism leads to dukkha is that it implies there must be an eternal self or entity which we can call "mine/I". The issue with an eternal self is that there will always be an entity to cling to or under go suffering through impermanence, also no such knowable entity exits according to Buddha so it is again a wrong view (wrong idea) through conceit. This comes down to "perception and perceiver" where through perception a perceiver is born into being and this birth is what leads to death, lamentation and suffering. In turn this leads to further ignorance and the cycle you posted starts once more. There is a way out of the cycle whilst living, and this is eightfold noble path.

You are right, in my understanding also, the mind/thought is not capable of grasping nirvana (extinguishing of craving, hate and ignorance). The middle way is subtle and this is one reason the Buddha hesitated on teaching it. The point being we can find some solace in knowing that when we recognise we cannot grasp/think about nirvana easily then we are at least heading in the right direction when we come to admit that it alludes us.

Thanks for the post.
Oliver.

[Deribasov]

Thanks for the replies.

I feel and understand the suffering of existence. It's an inner thing that I haven't been able to explain but was there most of my life.

I also though see beauty in the cycle of birth and death.

If everything is impermanent - how is ourselves nothing more than a passing thing?

[Discus]

Hi gerrardthor,

The approach I have to the issue is like this:

I get feelings of Nihlism

Maybe it is not about Nihilism but just a causation toward quenching dukkha.

At the sutta quoted, where it is read as 'feeling ceases', 'craving ceases' it can be better to read 'feeling quenches', 'craving quenches'.

Feelings -or more correctly, sensations- will be there always but mindfulness about them prevents from craving and then, that quenches too.

to exist to me is to suffer. I am not sure about this. Maybe to exist constantly clinging is what results in Dukkha.

So I just equate Nirvana with death even though Nirvana is something beyond death Deliverance from Dukkha states of mind -nibbana- happens when we stop craving/clinging.

It is just teaching how to quench a specific mental proliferation that leads to Dukkha. That is all.

Thanks for reading,

[tattcasetle]

how is ourselves nothing more than a passing thing?

I think that whether we become awaken or not, we will pass away... peacefully or in suffering. Fortunately, we can chose.

[Onervemurce]

I like your explanation in both post, Esho.

"Quenching", has a sensation of choice which I feel fits well with my understanding of the Buddha's teaching and our need to guard the sense gates and make right intentions etc.

Quenching is also an experience we can all recognise, where we may crave for a certain food or activity which is easily quenched by indulging ourselves. Later we may note that some time has passed without feeling or craving for that same food or activity i.e. it was just a idea or feeling we had. For the normal worldling the craving for another object or the same object may arise spontaneously, however for the arahant is seems to be said that the craving can be quenched for good. However it would not surprise me if there is still some way to rekindle the craving and thirst for worldly objects, even for the arahant who has mastered craving.

Metta.

[Usesdiums]

"Quenching", has a sensation of choice which I feel fits well with my understanding of the Buddha's teaching and our need to guard the sense gates and make right intentions etc.

Hi Oliver,

Using the word "quenching" is suggested in 'Befriending the Suttas' here:


"It is probably best not to let yourself get too comfortable with any one particular translation, whether of a word or of an entire sutta. Just because, for example, one translator equates "suffering" with dukkha or "Unbinding" with nibbana, doesn't mean that you should accept those translations as truth.

Try them on for size, and see how they work for you. Allow plenty of room for your understanding to change and mature, and cultivate a willingness to consider alternate translations.

Perhaps, over time, your own preferences will change (you may, for example, come to find "stress" and "quenching" more helpful).

Remember that any translation is just a convenient — but provisional — crutch that you must use until you can come to your own first-hand understanding of the ideas it describes."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/a...friending.html

[freediscountplanrrxip]

Thanks for the link and info, Aloka!

[UriDepkeeks]

I'd like to just thank every one for the replies. I don't have anything further to say. This is just hitting a certain zone within me that I really just need to meditate on.