[homerdienru]

Thus have I heard. At one time the Blessed One was dwelling at Bārāṇasī in the Deer Park at Isipatana. There the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus of the group of five thus: "Bhikkhus, these two extremes should not be followed by one gone forth (into the homeless life). What two? That which is this pursuit of sensual happiness in sense pleasures, which is low, vulgar, the way of the ordinary person, ignoble, not connected to the goal; and that which is this pursuit of self-mortification, which is painful, ignoble, not connected to the goal. Bhikkhus, without veering towards either of these two extremes, the One Attuned to Reality has awakened to the middle way, which gives rise to vision, which gives rise to knowledge, which leads to peace, to higher knowledge, to full awakening, to Nibbāna.

"And what, bhikkhus, is that middle way awakened to by the One Attuned to Reality which gives rise to vision, which gives rise to knowledge, which leads to peace, to higher knowledge, to full awakening, to Nibbāna? It is just this Noble Eight-factored Path, that is to say, right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right mental unification. This, bhikkhus, is that middle way awakened to by the One Attuned to Reality, which gives rise to vision, which gives rise to knowledge, which leads to peace, to higher knowledge, to full awakening, to Nibbāna.

"Now this, bhikkhus, for the spiritually ennobled ones, is the true reality which is pain: birth is painful, aging is painful, illness is painful, death is painful; sorrow, lamentation, physical pain, unhappiness and distress are painful; union with what is disliked is painful; separation from what is liked is painful; not to get what one wants is painful; in brief, the five bundles of grasping-fuel are painful.

"Now this, bhikkhus, for the spiritually ennobled ones, is the pain-originating true reality. It is this craving which leads to renewed existence, accompanied by delight and attachment, seeking delight now here now there; that is, craving for sense-pleasures, craving for existence, craving for extermination (of what is not liked).

"Now this, bhikkhus, for the spiritually ennobled ones, is the pain-ceasing true reality. It is the remainderless fading away and cessation of that same craving, the giving up and relinquishing of it, freedom from it, non-reliance on it.

"Now this, bhikkhus, for the spiritually ennobled ones, is the true reality which is the way leading to the cessation of pain. It is this Noble Eight-factored Path, that is to say, right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right mental unification.

"'This, for the spiritually ennobled ones, is the true reality of pain': in me, bhikkhus, in regard to things unheard before, there arose vision, knowledge, wisdom, true knowledge, and light.

"Now on this, 'This — for the spiritually ennobled ones, the true reality of pain — is to be fully understood': in me, bhikkhus, in regard to things unheard before, there arose vision, knowledge, wisdom, true knowledge, and light.

"Now on this, 'This — for the spiritually ennobled ones, the true reality of pain — has been fully understood': in me, bhikkhus, in regard to things unheard before, there arose vision, knowledge, wisdom, true knowledge, and light.

"(Likewise,) in me, bhikkhus, in regard to things unheard before, there arose vision, knowledge, wisdom, true knowledge and light, with respect to: 'This, for the spiritually ennobled ones, is the pain-originating true reality,' 'This — for the spiritually ennobled ones, the pain-originating true reality — is to be abandoned,' and 'This — for the spiritually ennobled ones, the pain-originating true reality — has been abandoned.'

"(Likewise,) in me, bhikkhus, in regard to things unheard before, there arose vision, knowledge, wisdom, true knowledge and light, with respect to: 'This, for the spiritually ennobled ones, is the pain-ceasing true reality,' 'This — for the spiritually ennobled ones, the pain-ceasing true reality — is to be personally experienced' and 'This — for the spiritually ennobled ones, the pain-ceasing true reality — has been personally experienced.'

"(Likewise,) in me, bhikkhus, in regard to things unheard before, there arose vision, knowledge, wisdom, true knowledge and light, with respect to: 'This, for the spiritually ennobled ones, is the true reality which is the way leading to the cessation of pain,' 'This — for the spiritually ennobled ones, the true reality which is the way leading to the cessation of pain — is to be developed,' and 'This — for the spiritually ennobled ones, the true reality which is way leading to the cessation of pain — has been developed.'

"So long, bhikkhus, as my knowledge and seeing of these four true realities for the spiritually ennobled ones, as they really are in their three phases (each) and twelve modes (altogether) was not thoroughly purified in this way, then so long, in the world with its devas, māras and brahmās, in this population with its renunciants and brahmans, its devas and humans, I did not claim to be fully awakened to the unsurpassed perfect awakening. But when, bhikkhus, my knowledge and vision of these four true realities for the spiritually ennobled ones, as they really are in their three phases and twelve modes was thoroughly purified in this way, then, in the world with its devas, māras and brahmās, in this population with its renunciants and brahmans, its devas and humans, I claimed to be fully awakened to the unsurpassed perfect awakening. Indeed, knowledge and seeing arose in me: 'Unshakeable is the liberation of my mind; this is my last birth: now there is no more renewed existence.'"

This is what the Blessed One said. Elated, the bhikkhus of the group of five delighted in the Blessed One's statement. And while this explanation was being spoken, there arose in the venerable Koṇḍañña the dust-free, stainless vision of the Basic Pattern: "whatever is patterned with an origination, all that is patterned with a cessation."

And when the Wheel (of Vision) of the Basic Pattern (of things) had been set in motion by the Blessed One, the earth-dwelling devas raised a cry: "At Bārāṇasī, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, the unsurpassed Wheel (of Vision) of the Basic Pattern (of things) has been set in motion by the Blessed One, which cannot be stopped by any renunciant or brahman or māra or brahmā or by anyone in the world." Having heard the cry of the earth-dwelling devas, the devas of the Four Great Kings raised the same cry. Having heard it, the Thirty-three devas took it up, then the Yāma devas, then the Contented devas, then the devas Who Delight in Creating, then the devas Who Delight in the Creations of Others, and then the devas of the brahmā group.

Thus at that moment, at that instant, at that second, the cry spread as far as the brahmā world, and this ten thousandfold world system shook, quaked, and trembled, and an immeasurable glorious radiance appeared in the world, surpassing the divine majesty of the devas.

Then the Blessed One uttered this inspiring utterance: "the honorable Koṇḍañña has indeed understood! The honorable Koṇḍañña has indeed understood! In this way, the venerable Koṇḍañña acquired the name Koṇḍañña Who Has Understood.

Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta ****

[carline]

dear forum

above is a rather interesting translation by Professor Peter Harvey of the first sermon, where he does not use the term 'Noble Truth'

Thanissaro seems to have refuted the translation, in his commentary, here

do we have any comments?

[Nidsstese]

Why would it be wrong to use the words The four noble truths? or maybe i misunderstand your meaning by your question

[DeronBoltonRen]

hi Thinker

for Prof Harvey, it is wrong to use the term 'noble truth' because, when using the common translation, the sermon states: "This noble truth of the arising of suffering is to be abandoned"

Prof Harvey suggests, if something is a "noble truth", why would be it be abandoned?

Prof Harvey seems to have used the word 'Ariya' to mean a noble person (Ariyan) instead of using 'ariya' as an adjective to mean 'faultless' or literally 'enemy-less'

instead of saying the four truths themselves are 'noble', Prof Harvey suggests the four truths make a human being 'noble'

then he has taken the word 'sacca' (truth) to mean 'true reality'

****

for me, the following translation certainly flows well; it seems certainly practical

"Now this, bhikkhus, for the spiritually ennobled ones, is the true reality which is pain: birth is painful, aging is painful, illness is painful, death is painful; sorrow, lamentation, physical pain, unhappiness and distress are painful; union with what is disliked is painful; separation from what is liked is painful; not to get what one wants is painful; in brief, the five bundles of grasping-fuel are painful.

"Now this, bhikkhus, for the spiritually ennobled ones, is the pain-originating true reality. It is this craving which leads to renewed existence, accompanied by delight and attachment, seeking delight now here now there; that is, craving for sense-pleasures, craving for existence, craving for extermination (of what is not liked).

"Now this, bhikkhus, for the spiritually ennobled ones, is the pain-ceasing true reality. It is the remainderless fading away and cessation of that same craving, the giving up and relinquishing of it, freedom from it, non-reliance on it.

"Now this, bhikkhus, for the spiritually ennobled ones, is the true reality which is the way leading to the cessation of pain. It is this Noble Eight-factored Path, that is to say, right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right mental unification.

'This — for the spiritually ennobled ones, the true reality of pain — has been fully understood'

'This — for the spiritually ennobled ones, the pain-originating true reality — has been abandoned.'

'This — for the spiritually ennobled ones, the pain-ceasing true reality — has been personally experienced.'

'This — for the spiritually ennobled ones, the true reality which is way leading to the cessation of pain — has been developed.'

[vaalmerruutel]

but playing with these words seems easy, as follows:

Vision arose, insight arose, discernment arose, knowledge arose, illumination arose within me with regard to things never heard before:

This noble truth is: 'the origination of stress' [study]

This noble truth is: 'the origination of stress is to be abandoned' [practise]

This noble truth is: 'the origination of stress has been abandoned' [realisation]

[Xzmwskxn]

I know stress can be a attachment but why you like better this word then the words suffering as it has been used mostly in other translations?

i just wonder

[artofeyyy]

hi thinker

i just pasted a quote. i prefer 'suffering' to 'stress'

kind regards

[picinaRefadia]

Ah hehe then i understand

i am agree with you Element

[LypeReexy]

then he has taken the word 'sacca' (truth) to mean 'true reality'

****

for me, the following translation certainly flows well; it seems certainly practical

I agree "true reality" works much better than "noble truth".

The trouble with noble truth is that the word truth implies that it's a proposition that must be believed, and I guess noble suggests an exclusivity.

Wheras true reality implies to me a law or principle to be experienced and to get in harmony with.

[XangadsX]

I agree too with 'true reality' concept; seems to be nearer to something that is tangible and therefore something that can be experienced directly.

However I have never felt the term Noble Truth inappropriate because what I have understood from 'Noble Truth' is a something about wisdom or discernment in a way that Noble Truth is 'that' that is understood through a careful examination of how things are.

By the way, it is always good to take with caution Thanisaro's translation. If we can get other translations -like in this case- it will be always a good idea.

[Quigoxito]

the word 'ariya', can be taken to mean 'to be without enemies', the enemy being 'dukkha'

the English word 'noble' does not reflect this meaning

as i mentioned, Prof Harvey has ceased to describe the truths as 'ariya' but, instead, described the mind that discerns the truths as 'noble'

4. Herein, what he recollects firstly is that the Blessed One is accomplished (arahanta)
for the following reasons: (i) because of remoteness (áraka), and (ii) because of
his enemies (ari) and (iii) the spokes (ara) having been destroyed (hata), and (iv)
because of his worthiness (araha) of requisites, etc., and (v) because of absence of
secret (rahábháva) evil-doing.

5. (i) He stands utterly remote and far away from all defilements because he has
expunged all trace of defilement by means of the path—because of such
remoteness (áraka) he is accomplished (arahanta).

A man remote (áraka) indeed we call
From something he has not at all;
The Saviour too that has no stain
May well the name “accomplished” (arahanta) gain.

6. (ii) And these enemies (ari), these defilements, are destroyed (hata) by the
path—because the enemies are thus destroyed he is accomplished (arahanta)
also.

The enemies (ari) that were deployed,
Greed and the rest, have been destroyed (hata)
By his, the Helper’s, wisdom’s sword,
So he is “accomplished” (arahanta), all accord.

Visuddhimagga

[Abanijo]

the word 'ariya', can be taken to mean 'to be without enemies', the enemy being 'dukkha'

the English word 'noble' does not reflect this meaning

as i mentioned, Prof Harvey has ceased to describe the truths as 'ariya' but, instead, described the mind that discerns the truths as 'noble'

Hi Element,

I have always understood 'Noble' as that refined understanding that results in wise discernment about the nature of Dukkha.

Noble Truth = Truth that has been wisely discerned.

Am I missing something?

[CatLuvkaLover]

according to Visuddhimagga, 'ariya' (noble) means 'without dukkha', thus truths that lead to ending dukkha

[fubyFrery]

according to Visuddhimagga, 'ariya' (noble) means 'without dukkha', thus truths that lead to ending dukkha

Mmmm... I was missing that.

[valentinesdayyy]

according to Visuddhimagga, 'ariya' (noble) means 'without dukkha', thus truths that lead to ending dukkha

This is probably a clarification of what it means to be Ariya Puggala.

However the word Ariya comes from the Aryans who invaded north India around 1500 BC and became the ruling clases in northern India, so it really refers to the nobility.

Of course the Buddha twists the term to say nobility isn't about birth, conquest, or riches, but about being and acting in accordance with reality and following the eightfold path.

[PebydataFeents]

This is probably a clarification of what it means to be Ariya Puggala.

However the word Ariya comes from the Aryans who invaded north India around 1500 BC and became the ruling clases in northern India, so it really refers to the nobility.

Of course the Buddha twists the term to say nobility isn't about birth, conquest, or riches, but about being and acting in accordance with reality and following the eightfold path.

Very good explanation. Thank you.

The pali word ariya means noble/holy although nobility is usually defined in different ways in different contexts. In the Buddhist context, it seems an ariyan (noble person) is a person who has realized dhamma.

Also, it is possible the Buddha didn't use the term ariya at all when he referred to the 4NTs. Maybe he used a term which could have been interpreted this way in pali.