[DoctorWeryDolt]

Hi everyone,

I've examined a number of Theravada teachers teachings and in my inexperience with the Theras teachings, it seems that Dhamma meditation is a bunch of stuff boiling simultaneously in different pots with no real cohesion that get thrown in together in "the end" of one's meditation career

Ex. Anapanasati, Kasinas, Vipassana, and Jhanas

Could someone bring the closest Nikaya based teachers view regarding this issue?

Thank you kindly,
Stefos

[Xewksghy]

Monks, in this Teaching that is so well proclaimed by me and is plain, open, explicit and free of patchwork

Alagaddupama Sutta Having thus developed the noble eightfold path...these two qualities occur in tandem: tranquillity (samatha) & insight (vipassana).

MN 149 There is no jhana without wisdom

There is no wisdom without jhana

But for one with both jhana and wisdom

They are in the presence of Nibbana

Dhammapada Verse 372 SAMATHA AND VIPASSANA ARE ONE

When we say "samatha-vipassana for the nuclear age," we ought to realize the significance of joining the words samatha (tranquility) and vipassana (insight) together. Samatha-vipassana is one thing, not two separate things. If they were two things, we would have to do two things and that would be too slow. When tranquility and insight are united as one thing, there is only a single thing to do. Both samatha and vipassana are developed at one and the same time. That saves time- a precious commodity in this nuclear age.

We can describe this as simultaneously seeing with tranquility (samatha), seeing an object and fixing the mind upon it, and seeing with insight (vipassana), seeing the characteristics, conditions, and truth of the thing. These two kinds of seeing happen together. We can say that samadhi (concentration) is added to panna (wisdom). Samadhi is the mind steadfastly focusing on the object; panna is seeing what the thing is all about, what characteristics it has, and what its truth is. For example, to look at and fix on a stone is samadhi, then to see that this stone is flowing continuously in change is panna. You don't have to do it many times, you don't need to do it twice, once is enough. Watch the stone and bring concentration and wisdom together in that watching.

This illustrates the intelligence of the Zen Buddhists. They don't separate samadhi and panna. Rather than distinguishing between the two, both together are called "Zen". In Pali the word is "jhana" and in Sanskrit it is "dhyana," which means "to gaze, to stare." Therefore, stare into that thing and see it with both concentration and wisdom. We can see that the Zen sect doesn't distinguish between morality, concentration and wisdom. When we stare at something there is morality (sila) in that gazing. Then fixing on that thing is samadhi and seeing its reality is wisdom. It saves a lot of time to combine three things into one. Yet practicing this one thing yields three kinds of fruit.

Samatha-Vipassana for the Nuclear Age AN 4.41: Samadhi Sutta — Concentration
The Buddha explains how concentration, when fully developed, can bring about any one of four different desirable results. ***

[mQb0aVZe]

I really don't see your point, can you provide a specific example please.

[PhilipBartew]

Dude! Seriously?

Who are these Theras you refer to? And how did you go about examining them?

Basically there are two types of cultivation.

1. Jhana and other onepointedness exercises that are for getting control of the mind and sharpening it as you would a pencil before use.
2. Bhavana that developes and deepens your understanding of the Dhamma.

There is no patchwork, no quilt and absolutely no plaid.

I think Element has provided ample references.

/Victor

[Tusanoc]

Dude! Seriously?

Who are these Theras you refer to? And how did you go about examining them?

Basically there are two types of cultivation.

1. Jhana and other onepointedness exercises that are for getting control of the mind and sharpening it as you would a pencil before use.
2. Bhavana that developes and deepens your understanding of the Dhamma.

There is no patchwork, no quilt and absolutely no plaid.

I think Element has provided ample references.

/Victor

Hi Victorius,

So let me understand sir (BTW, I use it as a term of respect, which I hope is one of the trademarks I leave with people):

Jhanic cultivation

Bhavanic cultivation

O.K., Are these the main points of teaching in Buddha Dhamma-Vinaya or are they what the Visuddhimagga & Vimuttimagga teach as 2 types of cultivation?

Also, Kasina meditation....Does this accord with the Nikaya Dhamma or not?

Goofaholix,
This post is my example. All of it.

Thanks folks,
Stefos

[lovespellszz]

Jhanic cultivation

Bhavanic cultivation

O.K., Are these the main points of teaching in Buddha Dhamma-Vinaya or are they what the Visuddhimagga & Vimuttimagga teach as 2 types of cultivation?

Also, Kasina meditation....Does this accord with the Nikaya Dhamma or not?

Goofaholix,
This post is my example. All of it.

You've got your terms mixed up, bhavana means cultivation so I'm sure there is nothing called cultivatic cultivation.

I assume you are comparing samatha/jhana bhavana with vipassana bhavana. I'm not sure why having more than one form of meditation creates a "patchwork quilt of Dhamma" in your view but if so all forms of Buddhism have more than one form of bhavana I'd have thought.

Samatha/jhana bhavana is clearly outlines in the Suttas, it is the right concentration factor of the eigtfold path. I don't really think Vipassana bhavana is outlined in the suttas in the same way as a meditation technique but the principles that it's based on (mindfulness, awareness, clear comprehension, changing phenomena) etc are all throughout the suttas.

I believe it's the Visuddhimagga where Vipassana bhavana becomes a medition technique however the Satapatthana Sutta is usually what is held up as the primary source.

Some teachers emphasise one over the other, the primary advantage of the latter over the former is that you don't need to be a monastic or on intensive retreat to do it successfully, but really they are two sides of the same coin and teachers like Ajahn Chah emphasise this.

Kasina meditation is mentioned as one of the 40 samatha meditation objects in the Visuddhimagga, i'm not sure if there is any source in the suttas.

So your point is?

[phenterminediett]

You've got your terms mixed up, bhavana means cultivation so I'm sure there is nothing called cultivatic cultivation.

I assume you are comparing samatha/jhana bhavana with vipassana bhavana. I'm not sure why having more than one form of meditation creates a "patchwork quilt of Dhamma" in your view but if so all forms of Buddhism have more than one form of bhavana I'd have thought.

Samatha/jhana bhavana is clearly outlines in the Suttas, it is the right concentration factor of the eigtfold path. I don't really think Vipassana bhavana is outlined in the suttas in the same way as a meditation technique but the principles that it's based on (mindfulness, awareness, clear comprehension, changing phenomena) etc are all throughout the suttas.

I believe it's the Visuddhimagga where Vipassana bhavana becomes a medition technique however the Satapatthana Sutta is usually what is held up as the primary source.

Some teachers emphasise one over the other, the primary advantage of the latter over the former is that you don't need to be a monastic or on intensive retreat to do it successfully, but really they are two sides of the same coin and teachers like Ajahn Chah emphasise this.

Kasina meditation is mentioned as one of the 40 samatha meditation objects in the Visuddhimagga, i'm not sure if there is any source in the suttas.

So your point is?

My point is that Theravada teachings seem to be at odds with the Nikayas.

I want to understand IF vipassana is an actual meditation practice taught by the Buddha or not and if the Kasinas are or not, etc.

The Theravada position is not very popular in the U.S. in my immediate experience.

Clarification is the point Goofaholix,
Thank you......Stefos

[rusculture]

My point is that Theravada teachings seem to be at odds with the Nikayas.

I want to understand IF vipassana is an actual meditation practice taught by the Buddha or not and if the Kasinas are or not, etc.

Theravada teachings are not at odds with the Nikayas they are based on the Nikayas. I find it strange you think having a few extra meditation techniques makes us "at odds".

If you read the Nikayas you will note they are not a meditation manual and contain general guiding principles on mental cultivation/meditation.

The pali word Vipassana is not the name of a meditation technique in the Nikayas but means clear seeing. However nowadays meditation techniques designed to bring about vipassana are generally called (or even branded) Vipassana meditation in much the same way that exercises designed to bring about fitness are called fitness.

[DiBellaBam]

kasina meditation is mentioned as one of the 40 samatha meditation objects in the visuddhimagga, i'm not sure if there is any source in the suttas.

mn 77.24; an x.29

dasayimāni, bhikkhave, kasiṇāyatanāni. Katamāni dasa? Pathavīkasiṇameko sañjānāti uddhaṃ adho tiriyaṃ advayaṃ appamāṇaṃ; āpokasiṇameko sañjānāti…pe… tejokasiṇameko sañjānāti… vāyokasiṇameko sañjānāti… nīlakasiṇameko sañjānāti… pītakasiṇameko sañjānāti… lohitakasiṇameko sañjānāti… odātakasiṇameko sañjānāti… ākāsakasiṇameko sañjānāti… viññāṇakasiṇameko sañjānāti uddhaṃ adho tiriyaṃ advayaṃ appamāṇaṃ. Imāni kho, bhikkhave, dasa kasiṇāyatanāni.

There are these ten totality-dimensions (kasiṇā devices). Which ten? One perceives the earth-totality above, below, all-around: Non-dual,[3] unlimited. One perceives the water-totality... The fire-totality... The wind-totality... The blue-totality... The yellow-totality... The red-totality... The white-totality... The space-totality... The consciousness-totality above, below, all-around: Non-dual, unlimited. These are the ten totalities. Now, of these ten totalities, this is supreme: When one perceives the consciousness-totality above, below, all-around: Non-dual, unlimited. And there are beings who are percipient in this way. Yet even in the beings who are percipient in this way there is still aberration, there is change. Seeing this, the instructed disciple of the noble ones grows disenchanted with that. Being disenchanted with that, he becomes dispassionate toward what is supreme, and even more so toward what is inferior.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit....029.than.html

[dr-eavealer]

I want to understand IF vipassana is an actual meditation practice taught by the Buddha or not and if the Kasinas are or not, etc.

vipassana was quoted from the Nikaya

Having thus developed the noble eightfold path...these two qualities occur in tandem: tranquillity (samatha) & insight (vipassana).

MN 149 more:

The swift pair of messengers is a designation for serenity (samatha) and insight (vipassana).

SN 35.245 Serenity (samatha) and insight (vipassana): this is called the path leading to the unconditioned

SN 43.2 He trains himself, 'I will breathe in focusing on inconstancy.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out focusing on inconstancy.'

MN 118 And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents? There is the case where a monk remains focused on arising & falling away with reference to the five clinging-aggregates: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is feeling, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is perception, such its origination, such its passing away. Such are fabrications, such their origination, such their passing away. Such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.' This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents.

AN 4.41 There are these five clinging-aggregates where a monk should stay, keeping track of arising & passing away (thus): 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance. Such is feeling... Such is perception... Such are fabrications... Such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.' As he stays keeping track of arising & passing away with regard to these five clinging-aggregates, he abandons any conceit that 'I am' with regard to these five clinging-aggregates. This being the case, he discerns, 'I have abandoned any conceit that "I am" with regard to these five clinging-aggregates.' In this way he is alert there.

MN 122 For a person whose mind is concentrated, there is no need for an act of will, 'May I know & see things as they actually are.' It is in the nature of things that a person whose mind is concentrated knows & sees things as they actually are.

"For a person who knows & sees things as they actually are, there is no need for an act of will, 'May I feel disenchantment.' It is in the nature of things that a person who knows & sees things as they actually are (yathābhūtaṃ jānāmi passāmi) feels disenchantment.

AN 11.2 That which is inconstant is unsatisfactory. What is inconstant, unsatisfactory, subject to change is unfit to be regarded as: 'This is mine. This is my self. This is what I am'.

Seeing thus (evaṃ passaṃ), the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones grows disenchanted

SN 22.59

[Zebrabitch]

more vipassana

‘‘Sabbe saṅkhārā aniccā’’ti, yadā paññāya passati;

Atha nibbindati dukkhe, esa maggo visuddhiyā.

‘‘Sabbe saṅkhārā dukkhā’’ti, yadā paññāya passati;

Atha nibbindati dukkhe, esa maggo visuddhiyā.

‘‘Sabbe dhammā anattā’’ti, yadā paññāya passati;

Atha nibbindati dukkhe, esa maggo visuddhiyā. "All conditioned things are impermanent" — when one sees this with wisdom, one turns away from suffering. This is the path to purification.

"All conditioned things are unsatisfactory" — when one sees this with wisdom, one turns away from suffering. This is the path to purification.

"All things are not-self" — when one sees this with wisdom, one turns away from suffering. This is the path to purification.

Dhammapada

[alegsghed]

below is a proper translation of the Anapanasati Sutta

the stages highlighted in blue are samatha; in green, vipassana; and in orange, nibbana

FIRST TETRAD

(1) While breathing in long he fully comprehends: I breathe in long. While breathing out long he fully comprehends: I breathe out long.

(2) While breathing in short he fully comprehends: I breathe in short. While breathing out short he fully comprehends: I breathe out short.

(3) He trains himself: thoroughly experiencing all bodies I shall breathe in. He trains himself: thoroughly experiencing all bodies I shall breathe out.

(4) He trains himself: calming the body-conditioner I shall breathe in. He trains himself: calming the body-conditioner I shall breathe out.

SECOND TETRAD

(5) He trains himself: thoroughly experiencing piti I shall breathe in. He trains himself: thoroughly experiencing piti I shall breathe out.

(6) He trains himself: thoroughly experiencing sukha I shall breathe in. He trains himself: thoroughly experiencing sukha I shall breathe out.

(7) He trains himself: thoroughly experiencing the mind-conditioner I shall breathe in. He trains himself: thoroughly experiencing the mind-conditioner I shall breathe out.

(8) He trains himself: calming the mind-conditioner I shall breathe in. He trains himself: calming the mind-conditioner I shall breathe out.

THIRD TETRAD

(9) He trains himself: thoroughly experiencing the mind I shall breathe in. He trains himself: thoroughly experiencing the mind I shall breathe out.

(10) He trains himself: gladdening the mind I shall breathe in. He trains himself: gladdening the mind I shall breathe out.

(11) He trains himself: concentrating the mind I shall breathe in. He trains himself: concentrating the mind I shall breathe out.

(12) He trains himself: liberating the mind I shall breathe in.

FOURTH TETRAD

(13) He trains himself; constantly contemplating impermanence I shall breathe in. He trains himself; constantly contemplating impermanence I shall breathe out.

(14) He trains himself; constantly contemplating fading away I shall breathe in. He trains himself: constantly contemplating fading away I shall breathe out.

(15) He trains himself: constantly contemplating quenching I shall breathe in. He trains himself: constantly contemplating quenching I shall breathe out.

(16) He trains himself: constantly contemplating tossing back I shall breathe in. He trains himself: constantly contemplating tossing back I shall breathe out.

[sbrscnds]

Hi Element,

Thank You! for the clarification. THAT is what I'm talking about.

Regards,
Stefos

[fubyFrery]

THAT is what I'm talking about.

hi Stefos

the anapanasati sutta does not represent 'patchwork'

it describes what occurs through one single meditative act of seeing

for example, when continuously looking at the breath, a number of things occur at the same time:

1. the mind sees the length of the breath, long or short

2. the mind sees 'all bodies', that is the cause & effect relationship between the mind, breath & body

3. the mind sees the impermanence (and, if clear, selflessness) of the breath

4. the minds sees by the mere act of observing the breath, the breath (and physical body & mind) calm

i can only encourage you to continually observe the breath until you see for yourself that in merely watching the breath:

1. the breath (and body & mind) calm, which is samatha

2. the characteristics of the breath are discerned, i.e., its length, texture, impermanence & effect upon the body, which is vipassana

kind regards

element

[gopsbousperie]

Hi Element,

My original question was in regards to the Theravada, not the Suttas and Vinaya sir.

The quotes you gave were sutta, not Theravada practices in their sum total and "break down."

Thank you,
Stefos

[Jon Woodgate]

My original question was in regards to the Theravada, not the Suttas and Vinaya sir.

ok, thanks

yes, Theravada is often a patchwork. i can't defend that fact

i suppose a patchwork may have developed over time because for the path factors to align may not be so easy

through placing attention on breathing (rather than letting go) samatha will prevail

through the prevailing of samatha & the lack of insight, techniques are developed in an attempt to brainwash the mind into vipassana (insight)

this patchwork may have evolved due to the emphasis upon 'doing' & 'effort' (rather than upon 'letting go' & 'abandonment')

[cut sifted ephedra sinica]

Hi Stefos! I'm a Theravada practitioner and follower of Ajahn Chah of the Thai Forest Tradition. I don't know if you're familiar with his teachings, but if you're not I highly recommend them, particularly for their simplicity. In my own practice of about 10 years I have often created much unnecessary suffering for myself by trying to incorporate too many things, sometimes even mixing different sects! This is a karmic flaw that I must constantly guard against, as my "small mind" readily uses it against me. So I definitely advise "less is better" in most situations. My practice now is so much simpler and easier after having eliminated all the nonessentials. Hope this helps and Happy Cultivating, Tom

[JohnMaltczevitch]

Hi Stefos! I'm a Theravada practitioner and follower of Ajahn Chah of the Thai Forest Tradition. I don't know if you're familiar with his teachings, but if you're not I highly recommend them, particularly for their simplicity. In my own practice of about 10 years I have often created much unnecessary suffering for myself by trying to incorporate too many things, sometimes even mixing different sects! This is a karmic flaw that I must constantly guard against, as my "small mind" readily uses it against me. So I definitely advise "less is better" in most situations. My practice now is so much simpler and easier after having eliminated all the nonessentials. Hope this helps and Happy Cultivating, Tom

Hi Tom,

I've seen something interesting in Theravada circles and Zen/Ch'an/Dzogchen circles:

It seems that the closer the teachings are/were to Indian Buddhism, the more "integrity" morality, wisdom and meditation teachings are and have.

In America, this seems to be the case also: Sticking close to original Buddhist branches of teaching rather than "making Dhamma-Vinaya up as we go", as I've seen in some of what I would term "Buddhist cults" is a quite the rare thing here.

Regards sir,
Stefos

[Pvfcadbh]

Hi Stefos! I appreciate your sharing your insights, and also feel that the adhering-to and mastering of the fundamentals is sorely lacking in spiritual as well as other circles. I know I've been guilty of this in the past, as my previous post indicates. People too easily get bored with strictness and simplicity, and get sucked-into a lot of bells and whistles. So I really police myself in this area, and promote it as a bodhisattvaic activity. Thanks and Happy Cultivating, Tom

[jdynwa]

In America, this seems to be the case also: Sticking close to original Buddhist branches of teaching rather than "making Dhamma-Vinaya up as we go", as I've seen in some of what I would term "Buddhist cults" is a quite the rare thing here.

Rather than everybody wondering whether they belong to a cult perhaps you'd like to list some examples of groups or organisations that you consider to be Buddhist cults.