[proslaviy]

My experience with breath and mind:

I have panic attacks and I perceive that when I have panic attacks the breath is erratic and is slower unless my panic spikes and then the breathing becomes faster until full blown panic ensues. Not a fun place to be, let me tell you!

When angry, I notice the breath becoming more "deliberate" in the in and out breath.

To me, "watching the breath" is not Anapanasati, it is "watching the breath." To me, REAL Anapanasati is awareness of breath, body, etc.
I really do not appreciate concentration being taught as meditation, i.e. in many modern "meditation" groups.
It simply and truly is not.

The Sutta is deep. "Watching the breath" is not.

Thank you,
Stefos

Buddha said in the DO that in-&-out breaths are bodily fabrications.

In-&-out breaths are bodily fabrications. Directed thought & evaluation are verbal fabrications. Perceptions & feelings are mental fabrications.

MN 44 When you have panic attacks and you focus on the breath and calm the breath, the body calms down. This is why doctors ask you to take a deep breath and count to 10. By calming the breath, your body calms down. This is how you watch your body and breath in anapanasati. This is how you reflect how the breath qualifies as a bodily fabricator - taking fast breaths and watching how they affect your body -taking longer breaths and watching how they affect your body.

Anapanasati is the practice whereas satipatthana is just a set of instructions to be put into effect while doing the practice. As a single sutta alone, satipatthana has no flow. As you practice anapanasati, you essentially put into effect the salient points of the satipatthana sutta.

[Qesomud]

I want to understand what the Buddha originally taught

Then I suggest you actively investigate the sutta pitaka of the pali Canon because that is the earliest available source of Dhamma today.

[lakraboob]

Quoted from the Samyutta-nikaya

Bhikkhus, Mindfulness with Breathing that one has developed and make much of, has great fruit and great benefit.

Even I myself, before awakening, when not yet enlightened, while still a Bodhisatva (Buddha to be), lived in this dwelling (way of life) for the most part. When I lived mainly in this dwelling, the body was not stressed, the eyes were not strained, and my mind was released from the asava (corruptions, cankers) through non-attachment.

For this reason, should anyone wish "may my body be not stressed, may my eyes be not strained, may my mind be released from the asava through non-attachment," then that person ought to attend carefully in his heart to this Mindfulness with Breathing meditation

[bloriMal]

I do not believe that the mind converges w/the in & out breath...I am not saying that anapanasati is separate from awareness. The issue is, is that the focus is understanding and not "Gee, that REALLY was a long breath"...

Having said that, Krishnamurti's Choiceless Awareness and Dzogchen's Naked Awareness is the same thing actually. I believe that what the Buddha taught was also Choiceless Awareness but people have taken it to be a "method" such as many erroneously stating that "concentration is meditation" when it is not, Not according to Buddhadhamma or Krishnamurti or Dzogchen or Vedanta, for that matter.

Do you believe that Theravada is the "original" teaching of the Buddha? My research has shown that there were other "schools" who held different Abhidhammas who were Pre-Mahayana. Ch'an, Dzogchen, Mahayana, etc. reflect another aspect of Buddhist school.

thank you, Stefos

my reply: the mode of reasoning above seems rather problematic, because, as characterised by the content, it fragments

i have sensed criticism of the Theravada school and i have myself have criticised the Theravada school on the same grounds

the Theravada school has created "techniques" due to not understanding natural manifestation

but the "natural awareness" schools can equally be criticised because they have not taken natural awareness far enough

let us face the facts. KM largely taught a form of introspection for individuals to learn to be aware of "themselves"; to be free of social conditioning & to cultivate internal emotional intelligence. thus, KM recommended choiceless awareness so an individual does not suppress, condemn or indulge but, instead, learns. but what is beyond this level of inquiry, KM rare spoken in detail about

when the mind is naturally silent, with no thoughts, for the whole of the meditation, a natural manifestation occurs. what else is jhana but the internal manifestation of letting go & Anapanasati.

Anapanasati and jhana are not things fragmented from the body of the Buddha's teachings, in the way some & the Theravada often explain. instead, Anapanasati is the direct natural result of abandoning craving & attachment, as prescribed in the Four Noble Truths

the Dhamma states:

Friends, just as the footprints of all legged animals are encompassed by the footprint of the elephant, and the elephant's footprint is reckoned the foremost among them in terms of size; in the same way, all skillful qualities are gathered under the four noble truths. Under which four? Under the noble truth of stress, under the noble truth of the origination of stress, under the noble truth of the cessation of stress, and under the noble truth of the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress.

Maha-hatthipadopama Sutta to end, there is little benefit in dismissing a road not travelled

warm regards

[aliceingoogs]

The issue is, is that the focus is understanding and not "Gee, that REALLY was a long breath"

awareness of long & short breathing is actually not part of the real training. awareness of long & short breathing is just a sign that some concentration (i.e., stable unified clear sensitive awareness) is manifesting

the real depth of Anapanasati begins at the 3rd stage, where the Buddha used the words: "He trains himself". the words: "He trains himself" means the three trainings of higher morality, higher concentration & higher wisdom are fully engaged. Higher wisdom is fully engaged because the practitioner has mastered the art of letting go & remaining free of craving

there are fourteen stages of training in samatha & vipassana mentioned below, manifesting in full scale vipassana in the fourth tetrad

this is the Buddha's description of the natural manifestation towards Nibbana. it is wise to not dismiss it. in fact, most do not even understand what the Buddha was explaining in each stage

ask 100 university professors what: "experiencing the mind-conditioner" means and most would probably be clueless

kind regards


FIRST TETRAD

(1) While breathing in long he fully comprehends: I breathe in long. While breathing out long he fully comprehends: I breathe out long.

(2) While breathing in short he fully comprehends: I breathe in short. While breathing out short he fully comprehends: I breathe out short.

(3) He trains himself: thoroughly experiencing all bodies I shall breathe in. He trains himself: thoroughly experiencing all bodies I shall breathe out.

(4) He trains himself: calming the body-conditioner I shall breathe in. He trains himself: calming the body-conditioner I shall breathe out.

SECOND TETRAD

(5) He trains himself: thoroughly experiencing piti I shall breathe in. He trains himself: thoroughly experiencing piti I shall breathe out.

(6) He trains himself: thoroughly experiencing sukha I shall breathe in. He trains himself: thoroughly experiencing sukha I shall breathe out.

(7) He trains himself: thoroughly experiencing the mind-conditioner I shall breathe in. He trains himself: thoroughly experiencing the mind-conditioner I shall breathe out.

(8) He trains himself: calming the mind-conditioner I shall breathe in. He trains himself: calming the mind-conditioner I shall breathe out.

THIRD TETRAD

(9) He trains himself: thoroughly experiencing the mind I shall breathe in. He trains himself: thoroughly experiencing the mind I shall breathe out.

(10) He trains himself: gladdening the mind I shall breathe in. He trains himself: gladdening the mind I shall breathe out.

(11) He trains himself: concentrating the mind I shall breathe in. He trains himself: concentrating the mind I shall breathe out.

(12) He trains himself: liberating the mind I shall breathe in.

FOURTH TETRAD

(13) He trains himself; constantly contemplating impermanence I shall breathe in. He trains himself; constantly contemplating impermanence I shall breathe out.

(14) He trains himself; constantly contemplating fading away I shall breathe in. He trains himself: constantly contemplating fading away I shall breathe out.

(15) He trains himself: constantly contemplating quenching I shall breathe in. He trains himself: constantly contemplating quenching I shall breathe out.

(16) He trains himself: constantly contemplating tossing back I shall breathe in. He trains himself: constantly contemplating tossing back I shall breathe out.

Anapanasati Sutta

[Sx1qBli0]

I would would have said it naturally converges on whatever is appropriate to be aware of at the time. If at the time one is practising anapanasati then yes, if practising a different technique then maybe not, if eating lunch or walking or doing any number of other activities then awareness should converge of the activity at hand not on the in & out breathing specifically.

thanks Goofaholix

mmm...i am not so inclined to agree. if eating lunch, with silent receptive mind, consciousness converges on breathing. similarly, if walking with silent receptive mind, consciousness converges on breathing. if typing, with silent receptive mind, consciousness can converge on breathing. sitting back & reading, rolling the mouse, the mind converges with breathing

Placing ones awareness on breathing in & out is a very good way of developing the minds capacity to be aware, probably the best way to start for beginners, but it's not the only way.

it may sound unusual to say, but, imo, 'placing' ones awareness on breathing is, imo, not really related to Anapanasati. imo, such a phrase is non-sequitur in respect to Buddha-Dhamma because the establishment of mindfulness is maintaining the mind free from craving. There is only one essential practise in supramundane Buddhism, which is abandoning craving, attachment, liking & disliking.

Buddha-Dhamma explains:

To me, "watching the breath" is not Anapanasati, it is "watching the breath."

It seems we agree. 'Anapanasati' is 'mindfulness with breathing' (rather than mindfulness 'of' breathing).

With metta

[Flerdourdyged]

Buddha said in the DO that in-&-out breaths are bodily fabrications.

Indeed. All skiful dhammas are connected; rather than disconnected. The 2nd link of DO are the objects of the 1st two satipatthana (to be calmed) and the 1st link of DO are the things that the 3rd and 4th satipatthana comprehend & eradicate

[Gaxiciverfere]

I would would have said it naturally converges on whatever is appropriate to be aware of at the time. If at the time one is practising anapanasati then yes, if practising a different technique then maybe not, if eating lunch or walking or doing any number of other activities then awareness should converge of the activity at hand not on the in & out breathing specifically.

thanks Goofaholix

mmm...i am not so inclined to agree. if eating lunch, with silent receptive mind, consciousness converges on breathing. similarly, if walking with silent receptive mind, consciousness converges on breathing. if typing, with silent receptive mind, consciousness can converge on breathing. sitting back & reading, rolling the mouse, the mind converges with breathing Hi Element,

I'm not clear about what you're saying here -for example if I am walking with a silent receptive mind and I need to cross a busy road, then my awareness will be primarily focussed with what's happening with the traffic on the road and my passage through it, rather than with breathing.

Just as an off-topic aside, today I came across a sutta I hadn't read before which mentions consciousness -


SN 12.38 Cetana Sutta : Intention.

Staying at Savatthi... [the Blessed One said,] "What one intends, what one arranges, and what one obsesses about: This is a support for the stationing of consciousness. There being a support, there is a landing [or: an establishing] of consciousness. When that consciousness lands and grows, there is the production of renewed becoming in the future.

continued:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit....038.than.html

Anyway, sorry....back to topic again

[Paiblyelaxy]

mmm...i am not so inclined to agree. if eating lunch, with silent receptive mind, consciousness converges on breathing. similarly, if walking with silent receptive mind, consciousness converges on breathing. if typing, with silent receptive mind, consciousness can converge on breathing. sitting back & reading, rolling the mouse, the mind converges with breathing

Why? To what purpose? Why converge with only one activity in the mind-body process? There are four foundations of mindfulness, why limit the mind to a very small part of our experience? Yes one needs to do this if one wants to develop Jhana, but still it’s a means to an end not an end in itself.

it may sound unusual to say, but, imo, 'placing' ones awareness on breathing is, imo, not really related to Anapanasati. imo, such a phrase is non-sequitur in respect to Buddha-Dhamma because the establishment of mindfulness is maintaining the mind free from craving. There is only one essential practise in supramundane Buddhism, which is abandoning craving, attachment, liking & disliking.

True, and the answer is not in the breath it’s in the awareness.

Let us take the later stages of Anapanasti as examples. Can placing ones awareness on rapture be practised? Can placing ones awareness on the mind with anger be practised? Of course not.

Of course it can, though there is no meditation technique described as such. The point of awareness though, as I understand it, is that it is non-discrimantory it is aware of whatever is appropriate to be aware of at the time, it’s not focussed on one object at the exclusion of others.

Of course some meditation techniques encourage placing awareness on one object at the exclusion of others, but this is a means to an end it’s not that the answers are all contained in the breathing if one can only stare at it long enough without flinching. One doesn’t progress on the path by developing breathing, one progresses by developing awareness among other things.

The breathing steps are the same. They do not manifest from "placing ones awareness on the breathing". Imo, placing ones awareness on the breathing is hatha-yoga rather than Buddha's mindfulness practise.

I really don’t see the difference between “converging on” and "placing ones awareness on”, perhaps the former is effortless whereas the latter is with effort, is this what you mean?

Naturally, we do not have the accept what i am saying. It is just an opinion. Instead, we need to stop placing our awareness on the breathing until the mind becomes aware of the breathing without placing its awareness on the breathing. Then was can verify for ourselves that we do not need to place our awareness on the breathing for the mind to become aware of the breathing.

Why get wound up about the breathing at all? if one technique is not really working for you then use a different technique.

However if one does choose the breath as the primary object then for most people there will be a period where you have to deliberately keep placing awareness on the breath before this becomes easy and natural.

Further, when the mind becomes aware of the breathing without placing its awareness on the breathing, we can continue to not place awareness on the breathing even though the mind become more & more aware of the breathing.

This is fine if breathing is the most important activity at the time, and for concentration based sitting meditation breathing is often the most important activity at the time. However when crossing the street or performing brain surgery etc breathing is not the most important activity at the time.

Imo, this is the Buddha's training, namely, not attaching or clinging to anything. Placing ones awareness on the breathing is, arguably, a form of clinging. And no! It is not a skilful means. It is simply training wheels for beginners. But in real practise where: 'He trains himself', I suggest the mind deliberately does not place attention on the breathing. Instead, the mind remains free & void. When the mind remains free & void, the breathing can certainly come to the mind & the mind can converge with the breathing.

This is my point, and the mind can equally not converge with the breathing.

It seems we agree. 'Anapanasati' is 'mindfulness with breathing' (rather than mindfulness 'of' breathing).

Yes, that’s probably a better way of describing it.

Looking at the title of this thread I’m a bit confused how it came to be about one specific meditation technique.

[Mambattedge]

thank you, Stefos

my reply: the mode of reasoning above seems rather problematic, because, as characterised by the content, it fragments

i have sensed criticism of the Theravada school and i have myself have criticised the Theravada school on the same grounds

the Theravada school has created "techniques" due to not understanding natural manifestation

but the "natural awareness" schools can equally be criticised because they have not taken natural awareness far enough

let us face the facts. KM largely taught a form of introspection for individuals to learn to be aware of "themselves"; to be free of social conditioning & to cultivate internal emotional intelligence. thus, KM recommended choiceless awareness so an individual does not suppress, condemn or indulge but, instead, learns. but what is beyond this level of inquiry, KM rare spoken in detail about

when the mind is naturally silent, with no thoughts, for the whole of the meditation, a natural manifestation occurs. what else is jhana but the internal manifestation of letting go & Anapanasati.

Anapanasati and jhana are not things fragmented from the body of the Buddha's teachings, in the way some & the Theravada often explain. instead, Anapanasati is the direct natural result of abandoning craving & attachment, as prescribed in the Four Noble Truths

the Dhamma states:



to end, there is little benefit in dismissing a road not travelled

warm regards

Thank you Element for clarifying.

My thoughts sir:

There is really only One Buddhadhamma not many and not developments upon developments of Buddhist sects.
You see, I don't put the Nikayas on a pedastal and say "THIS is it" because other Buddhist schools existed whose Nikayas are not around any longer. Nor do I say the Pali Nikayas are the "final word" but I believe that they contain elements of the "final word" of the Buddha.

For example:
The Buddha was said to have been all knowing. He must have known about prana and its' flow in the body, the chakras and their functions, and the nadis and their purpose. Only Vajrayana even mentions this and I see no issue with it.

Regarding what "X,Y, Z" (Buddhist term/concept actually means):
Many people have "put what X,Y, Z means back in the Buddha's mouth" and I don't necessarily believe that that was right, What do I mean?
This: We have no reliable proof outside of the Vinaya and certain Nikayas as to what Pre "18 school" Buddhism looked like.
Many Theravadas and Mahayanists and Vajrayanists take their works and say "THIS is what the Buddha meant by X, Y, Z"

To my thinking mind, this makes no sense.

Therefore, even after "reverse engineering" the current understanding of Anapanasati/4 Jhanas/4 Brahmaviharas, etc. and tracing HOW/WHY so many different schools came about would show the student what the Buddha really taught only to a certain degree and not to a definitive point.

Having said ALL that, what you say is correct. Dismissing things without looking into them is just as insensitive as Embracing things without looking into them. I have done much research Element and I've also experienced some "interesting" things happen to me as a result of putting what the Buddha and K.M. and what Dzogchen teach into practice (not "work" )

THAT I assure you of sir.

Incidentally, I own the PTS Samyutta/Digha/Majjhima/Anguttara Nikayas along with the Dhammasangani & Vibhanga, Udana, Itivuttaka, Suttanipata and Dhammapada. I will probably buy the entire Vinaya Pitaka next as well! Wowie!

May you always be well,
Stefos

[itaspCatCriny]

There are four foundations of mindfulness, why limit the mind to a very small part of our experience?

hi G

the Anapanasati Sutta appears to explain each stage is done with awareness of breathing. thus there appears to be a depth to Anapanasati that is far deeper. Buddha instructed perfecting Anapanasati perfects the Four Foundations of Mindfulness. therefore, it appears quite obvious Anapanasati is not different from Satipatthana and Satipatthana is not different from Anapanasati

True, and the answer is not in the breath it’s in the awareness.

the breath is held to be the 'preliminary sign' of an awareness free from craving, which is abiding in the 4NTs. therefore, it appears quite obvious, practising the 4NTs is not different to practising Anapanasati and practising Anapanasati is not different to practising the 4NTs. it appears practising Anapanasati is practising the 4NTs. Buddha-Dhamma explains:

The point of awareness though, as I understand it, is that it is non-discrimantory it is aware of whatever is appropriate to be aware of at the time, it’s not focussed on one object at the exclusion of others.

the Anapanasati Sutta appears to explain each stage is done with awareness of breathing. there appears to be a depth to Anapanasati that is beyond, i.e., far deeper, than what many believe. Buddha instructed perfecting Anapanasati perfects the Four Foundations of Mindfulness. it appears obvious Anapanasati is not different from Satipatthana and Satipatthana is not different from Anapanasati

when aware of rapture (which must manifest due to awareness of breathing), the mind is also aware of breathing. when aware of the quality of mind, the mind is also aware of breathing. when aware of impermanence, the mind is also aware of breathing. when aware of sankhara (conditioning; cause & effect relationships), the mind is also aware of breathing. this is Anapanasati, as described in the sutta. it appears obvious Anapanasati is not focussing on one object at the exclusion of others

in short, it appears superficial view of Anapanasati will limit the scope of practise that is possible. for example, the 9th stage of Anapanasati is not ultimately related to thoughts. ultimely, the 9th stage of Anapanasati is practised with complete samadhi were the object of awareness is underlying ('energy' of) defilement itself (rather than thought/mental words)

One doesn’t progress on the path by developing breathing, one progresses by developing awareness among other things..

i very thoroughly enjoy reading your posts on this forum. but i must disagree thoroughly with this view here. the path of samatha-vipassana can fully progress by developing Anapanasati, as buddha taught. as i suggested, we can limit ourselves here by overlooking a road not travelled

I really don’t see the difference between “converging on” and "placing ones awareness on”, perhaps the former is effortless whereas the latter is with effort, is this what you mean?

at SN 48.9 & 10, buddha taught the practitioner develops jhana by making letting go (relinquishment; abandonment; vossaga) the sole object. when jhana occurs, feelings of rapture & bliss manifest, which, on that level of samadhi, form the basis of the 2nd Satipatthana

so what is the difference? for me, using effort is not letting go. by using effort, the mind can suppress. by suppressing, there can be limited spaciousness for the mental formations stored within the physical body to rise up, dissolve & purify

an analogy can be used of a bird in a cage. the stress formations stored within the physical body are like the bird in the cage. crushing the bird will not remove the bird from the cage. but opening the door of the cage will allow the bird to fly out of the cage

buddha taught in places that the practitioner develops samadhi, a factor of the path, by making letting go the sole object

as for the hatha yoga methods common in Theravada, these were explained by Achariya Buddhaghosa rather than Buddha.

Why get wound up about the breathing at all? if one technique is not really working for you then use a different technique.

because Buddha explained Anapanasati also as the 8FP. but, yes, if it is not really working for you then use a different technique

However if one does choose the breath as the primary object then for most people there will be a period where you have to deliberately keep placing awareness on the breath before this becomes easy and natural..

sure. but once the mind is under control, when it can maintain concentration, it can abandon this "placing"

Looking at the title of this thread I’m a bit confused how it came to be about one specific meditation technique.

how? Deshy and Element went on a ranting rampage because Anapanasati seemed to not be viewed in its fullness

with metta

[HotDolly]

For example:
The Buddha was said to have been all knowing. He must have known about prana and its' flow in the body, the chakras and their functions, and the nadis and their purpose. Only Vajrayana even mentions this and I see no issue with it.

hi Stefos

in my opinion, in the Pali reports, buddha emphasised the mind rather than the body; emphasised wisdom rather than samadhi. in yoga, there is bakti yoga (devotion), karma yoga (service), hatha yoga (prana energy) and raga yoga (wisdom yoga). buddha seemed to emphasis raga yoga but the various buddhist schools seems to emphasise the kind of yoga that suits them.

May you always be well

thank you

[Aizutox]

at SN 48.9 & 10, buddha taught the practitioner develops jhana by making letting go (relinquishment; abandonment; vossaga) the sole object. when jhana occurs, feelings of rapture & bliss manifest, which, on that level of samadhi, form the basis of the 2nd Satipatthana

so what is the difference? for me, using effort is not letting go. by using effort, the mind can suppress. by suppressing, there can be limited spaciousness for the mental formations stored within the physical body to rise up, dissolve & purify

Hi Element,
Absolutely spot on. A great post and a wonderful exposition on the profundity and effectiveness of Anapanasati. Whilst the Suttas contain some thinly covered material, Anapanasati, is not of this kind - as Buddha emphasizes it time and time again.

I have often wondered how more obvious could Buddha have been in propagating it as his recommended meditative system? Yet nowadays it seems as if folks are happy to dismiss it as either irrelevant, too simple, too difficult or even (and I've read this elsewhere) "dangerous".

The level of disregard and disinformation is very sad. Threads like this help set things right.

[Timoxari]

Yes, irrespective of the fact that anapanasati is the practice recommended by the Buddha over and over again, the sutta's coverage could be quite misleading to someone who compares it with a sutta in the Diga nikaya. In reality, anapanasati is extremely profound. As an example from modern-day anapanasati practitioners, I would recommend AB's book which covers all stages of the sutta in detail.

[29clepayJainync]

the Anapanasati Sutta appears to explain each stage is done with awareness of breathing. thus there appears to be a depth to Anapanasati that is far deeper. Buddha instructed perfecting Anapanasati perfects the Four Foundations of Mindfulness. therefore, it appears quite obvious Anapanasati is not different from Satipatthana and Satipatthana is not different from Anapanasati

The Satipatthana Sutta explains all four foundations of mindfulness, the breath (not anapansati specifically) is only mentioned in connection with mindfulness of the body. Of course it’s an important gateway sure, a good friend along the way no doubt.

it appears quite obvious, practising the 4NTs is not different to practising Anapanasati and practising Anapanasati is not different to practising the 4NTs. it appears practising Anapanasati is practising the 4NTs. Buddha-Dhamma explains:

Friends, just as the footprints of all legged animals are encompassed by the footprint of the elephant, and the elephant's footprint is reckoned the foremost among them in terms of size; in the same way, all skillful qualities are gathered under the four noble truths. Under which four? Under the noble truth of stress, under the noble truth of the origination of stress, under the noble truth of the cessation of stress, and under the noble truth of the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress.

Maha-hatthipadopama Sutta

Now we’re getting silly, I’m not sure whether you are downgrading the 4NT to a meditation technique or upgrading a meditation technique to the problem and solution to life as we know it.

The curious thing about that quote is it says nothing about the breath in general or anapanasati specifically

the Anapanasati Sutta appears to explain each stage is done with awareness of breathing. there appears to be a depth to Anapanasati that is beyond, i.e., far deeper, than what many believe. Buddha instructed perfecting Anapanasati perfects the Four Foundations of Mindfulness. it appears obvious Anapanasati is not different from Satipatthana and Satipatthana is not different from Anapanasati

I don’t disagree. However the Buddha did not just teach one meditation technique he suggested a whole raft of meditation techniques, more importantly he taught a whole new approach and purpose to meditation specifically and life in general.

when aware of rapture (which must manifest due to awareness of breathing), the mind is also aware of breathing. when aware of the quality of mind, the mind is also aware of breathing. when aware of impermanence, the mind is also aware of breathing. when aware of sankhara (conditioning; cause & effect relationships), the mind is also aware of breathing. this is Anapanasati, as described in the sutta. it appears obvious Anapanasati is not focussing on one object at the exclusion of others

The mind can be aware of those things, and the breathing seemingly simultaneously or in quick succession, yes I agree anapanasati is not focussing on one object at the exclusion of others, though it can be practised that way. I also understand that anapanasati is not just about the nostrils and upper lip and that it would be a mistake to view it that way.

What I don’t agree with is the notion that anapanasati is the only way to develop awareness of the four foundations of mindfulness, which on the surface of it appears is what you are saying.

in short, it appears superficial view of Anapanasati will limit the scope of practise that is possible. for example, the 9th stage of Anapanasati is not ultimately related to thoughts. ultimely, the 9th stage of Anapanasati is practised with complete samadhi were the object of awareness is underlying ('energy' of) defilement itself (rather than thought/mental words)

Agreed, of course this only matters if the technique you are choosing to practise is in fact anapanasati. At the end of the day whatever technique one chooses it’s a means to an end not an end in itself, it’s the mind we are interested in training not the breathing.

i very thoroughly enjoy reading your posts on this forum. but i must disagree thoroughly with this view here. the path of samatha-vipassana can fully progress by developing Anapanasati, as buddha taught. as i suggested, we can limit ourselves here by overlooking a road not travelled

I agree you can fully progress with one technique provided you don’t get in a rut with it. In my experience this is very easy to do if one doesn’t develop skills in more than one technique and doesn’t learn to recognise the state of mind at the time and doesn’t learn to vary the approach depending on the state of mind at the time.

Too much emphasis on one technique and not enough on the state of mind the technique is intended to develop leads to a can’t see the woods for the trees type practice in my experience and from what I’ve observed of other meditators.

so what is the difference? for me, using effort is not letting go. by using effort, the mind can suppress. by suppressing, there can be limited spaciousness for the mental formations stored within the physical body to rise up, dissolve & purify

Agreed, practice should eventually become effortless however most/all people go through a period of putting forth effort before they learn to let go and allow effortlessness, this effort is not lost as it also helps develop self discipline.

how? Deshy and Element went on a ranting rampage because Anapanasati seemed to not be viewed in its fullness

Sure it’s not uncommon for people to not appreciate the progression laid out in the anapanasati sutta but that doesn’t warrant equating it with the purpose and foundational teaching of the Buddhadamma.

[Sertvfdnhgjk]

hi Stefos

in my opinion, in the Pali reports, buddha emphasised the mind rather than the body; emphasised wisdom rather than samadhi. in yoga, there is bakti yoga (devotion), karma yoga (service), hatha yoga (prana energy) and raga yoga (wisdom yoga). buddha seemed to emphasis raga yoga but the various buddhist schools seems to emphasise the kind of yoga that suits them.


thank you

Hi Element,

Yes sir. Buddha DID emphasize mind rather than body. However, he understood both!

The forms of Yoga today do "cater" to people's various bents/intentions....it is what it is.

Let's not forget the salient issue in this: The Buddhas' 2 teachers who taught him those forms of meditation were not Jains nor were they Buddhists. In my research, the were adherents of Upanishadic thought and the Buddha used their teachings.

This is a very commonly and of course, conveniently overlooked thing. Upanishads ------> Brahman (personal & impersonal)

As I've stated before, in the time of the Buddha both Brahman and Atman had a whole variety of various meanings which were contradictory.
The Buddha also used those states taught by his 2 former teachers as steps to Nibbana, "whatever that is."
It is after the sphere, taught by the Buddhas' former teacher, that the Buddha gained/reached Nibbana.

Interesting indeed.

Thank you,
Stefos

[ChuttyAmult]

Hi Element,
Absolutely spot on. A great post and a wonderful exposition on the profundity and effectiveness of Anapanasati. Whilst the Suttas contain some thinly covered material, Anapanasati, is not of this kind - as Buddha emphasizes it time and time again.

I have often wondered how more obvious could Buddha have been in propagating it as his recommended meditative system? Yet nowadays it seems as if folks are happy to dismiss it as either irrelevant, too simple, too difficult or even (and I've read this elsewhere) "dangerous".

The level of disregard and disinformation is very sad. Threads like this help set things right.

Hi Srivijaya,

The MAIN thing that concerns me about how "meditation" is being taught today is as a set of separate parts being taught to reach Nibbanna.

Meditative states are subjective with objective "signs" as such.

For someone to say that meditation is "step by step" is not only tacky but wrong.
Integration is what the Buddha taught, as found in the Nikayas and not disjointed "meditional topics" as might be commonly misunderstood in a gradualistic type of mindset.

It is all very strange to read about "Buddhist meditation" now a days.

Thank you,
Stefos

[rootoronpunty]

Yes sir. Buddha DID emphasize mind rather than body. However, he understood both!

Yes sir. Buddha certainly understood both but freedom from suffering is something mental. A body, with perfectly purified & flowing chakras (nervous system) may occur during the peak of mental & physical life but they will one day pass. Thus, Buddha placed no importance on such peaks of physical being but rather non-attachment towards it. Kind regards

[ehib8yPc]

Let's not forget the salient issue in this: The Buddhas' 2 teachers who taught him those forms of meditation were not Jains nor were they Buddhists. In my research, the were adherents of Upanishadic thought and the Buddha used their teachings.

Actually, this issue is irrelevent in Buddhism. In Buddhism, the salient basis of faith is Buddha was 'Sammasambuddha', meaning Perfectly & Fully Self-Enlightened Without A Teacher Who Starts the Buddhist Religion. Every day, millions of Buddhists chant:

Arahaṃ sammā-sambuddho bhagavā.

The Blessed One is Worthy & Rightly Self-awakened.

Buddhaṃ bhagavantaṃ abhivādemi.

I bow down before the Awakened, Blessed One. When Prince Siddhartha left the palace, he rejected what his two teachers taught him. What his two teachers taught him are unrelated to the essence of Buddhism. This is why, after abandoning his two teachers, Prince Siddharta searched for six years until becoming Buddha.

Kind regards


In this way did Alara Kalama, my teacher, place me, his pupil, on the same level with himself and pay me great honor. But the thought occurred to me, 'This Dhamma leads not to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to stilling, to direct knowledge, to Awakening, nor to Unbinding, but only to reappearance in the dimension of nothingness.' So, dissatisfied with that Dhamma, I left.

In this way did Uddaka Ramaputta, my companion in the holy life, place me in the position of teacher and pay me great honor. But the thought occurred to me, 'This Dhamma leads not to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to stilling, to direct knowledge, to Awakening, nor to Unbinding, but only to reappearance in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception.' So, dissatisfied with that Dhamma, I left.

Ariyapariyesana Sutta

[preachadaq]

The Satipatthana Sutta explains all four foundations of mindfulness, the breath (not anapansati specifically) is only mentioned in connection with mindfulness of the body. Of course it’s an important gateway sure, a good friend along the way no doubt.

Sure it’s not uncommon for people to not appreciate the progression laid out in the anapanasati sutta but that doesn’t warrant equating it with the purpose and foundational teaching of the Buddhadamma.

hi G

i can only reply by recommending to actually read the Anapanasati Sutta. it represents the foundational teachings of Buddhadhamma because all insight is contained within the sixteen stages. study, practise & realisation is the individual responsibility of each buddhist

with metta