[Agehoobionibe]

Hi everyone,

I have undertaken to again revisit Nibanna and what it means.

In the past, I've had numerous discussions with Atheists who supposedly possessed an understanding about this matter, only to find out they did not cite any source material at all (i.e. Suttas, Abhidamma or commentaries).

So, In the Ittivutaka, the Buddha mentions "The Unborn", here it is:

"There exists, monks, that which is unborn, that which is unbecome, that which is uncreated, that which is unconditioned."

The Buddha goes on to say that essentially this is the goal of meditation and of course sila, panna, etc.

Now, My understanding is that in Theravada and in the pre "18 schools period" the 4 brahmaviharas are mentioned as meditations, metta-bhavana, the kasinas and jhanas are mentioned also. However, the Buddha mentoned Vipassana as the meditation of release from Samsara, I believe.

If Vipassana is the meditation of release from Samsara, how do the rest of the meditational "topics" per se meet with that towards a Nibbana goal?

Sorry for the verboseness but I really see no other way of expressing this!

Thank you,
Stefos

[sasquatch999]

I have undertaken to again revisit Nibanna and what it means.

So, In the Ittivutaka, the Buddha mentions "The Unborn", here it is:

"There exists, monks, that which is unborn, that which is unbecome, that which is uncreated, that which is unconditioned."

hi Stefos

the "Unborn" is certainly one definition of Nibbana but, more simply, the Nikayas also define Nibbana as the cessation of greed, hatred & delusion. therefore, the mind without greed, hatred & delusion experiences the unborn (of non-becoming) and remaining unconditioned by greed, hatred & delusion.

the more simple definition of Nibbana may make the more esoteric definition of Nibbana more clear

Now, My understanding is that in Theravada and in the pre "18 schools period" the 4 brahmaviharas are mentioned as meditations, metta-bhavana, the kasinas and jhanas are mentioned also. However, the Buddha mentoned Vipassana as the meditation of release from Samsara, I believe. If Vipassana is the meditation of release from Samsara, how do the rest of the meditational "topics" per se meet with that towards a Nibbana goal?

'Vipassana' means 'clearly seeing' the impermanence (rise & fall; appearance & disappearance), unsatisfactoriness & selflessness of phenomema. Jhana (mental stillness, purity & clarity) enables excellent vipassana to occur because if the mind cannot remain constantly clear, then constantly seeing the impermanence of mental objects cannot occur.

Jhana also causes certain mental objects (such as feelings) to manifest in way that is more pronounced than normal and therefore allows the true nature of these mental objects (such as feelings) to be seen more clearly.

the 4 brahmaviharas simply (but indirectly) help develop jhana because ill-will/hatred/anger/etc are obstacles to jhana. but to develop jhana, the mind must practise more than just the 4 brahmaviharas. the mind must also practise letting go

kind regards

[Teprophopay]

If Vipassana is the meditation of release from Samsara, how do the rest of the meditational "topics" per se meet with that towards a Nibbana goal?

I am not too sure if the statement "Vipassana is the meditation of release" is accurate. IMO, the prominence here is jhana. "Jhana-induced vipassana is the path to release".

There are a lot of debates as to what the Buddha's unique discovery was: jhana or vipassana. I have a feeling the kind of jhana leading to wisdom is unique to Buddhism because real jhana is not achievable without the noble 8-fold path which the Buddha discovered. Sila (morality), samadhi (tranquility) and panna (wisdom) are developed through the 8-fold path. Without mastering the 8-fold path, real jhana is not possible.

Vipassana (direct insight) happens naturally in a mind that is free from the five hindrances. It is the five hindrances that nourish ignorance. Jhana occurs in meditation as the mind becomes free from the five hindrances. Therefore, it is jhana-induced insight that leads to Nibbana, imo.

In MN 36, the Buddha recalls rapture and pleasure of jhana and how he discerned jhana as the path to awakening:

"I thought: 'I recall once, when my father the Sakyan was working, and I was sitting in the cool shade of a rose-apple tree, then — quite secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful mental qualities — I entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. Could that be the path to Awakening?' Then following on that memory came the realization: 'That is the path to Awakening.'

[Haibundadam]

Although the metta-bhavana and numerous kasinas are used by some, the Buddha gave prominence to the breath as the meditation object in the Anapanasati sutta.

[Koayrbzh]

Nibbana meaning cooling off, the word comes from letting your pot stand for a while to cool down after cooking, you'd nibbana it for a while. Another metaphor for Nibbana is a candle flame going out, as has been pointed out this is the extinguishing of greed, aversion, and delusion.

Vipassana means clear seeing as has been pointed out, you don't need meditation for clear seeing to take place, however in it's modern usage Vipassana has come to mean a mode of meditation that is designed to promote clear seeing. Particularly clear seeing of impermanence, unsatisfactioriness, and not self which leads to release from greed, aversion, and delusion.

Jhana can also contribute to clear seeing but the trouble is you need to put aside a lot of time and be in condusive conditions with the right state of mind and the guidance of a teacher to make it work and not get caught up in it. This is why in modern times, for lay people at least, Vipassana oriented techniques or a Vipassana oriented approach are encouraged by most teachers.

[GutleNus]

Hi everyone,

The Buddha did mention that "Here unconditioned consciousness ceases to exist" (See Anguttara & Digha Nikayas, I believe).

A particularly old debate is "Gradual vs. Sudden" enlightenment, which of course, really is theoretical in once sense because of the actual need for practice. Please don't misunderstand me to think that my definition of practice means "blood, sweat & tears" as it does not.

Krishnamurti was keen to describe "practice" as something one did without force and without a fixed point, something that I all to often see in reading Theravada works from various authors, not the Nikayas themselves. Interesting point!

Pre-Nibbanic states are not new to "Buddhism" as the Buddhas' teachers were not Buddhists and from my research, the Buddha took up an Upanishadic stance in accepting them as teachers and in doing pranayama or as the Digha Nikaya states "experiencing violent winds when stopping the in/out breaths out of the mouth, mouth & nose, and mouth/nose/ears and mouth/nose/ears/closing the eyes"

Comments?
Thank you,
Stefos

[CurtisTH]

Hi Deshy,

No sir/ma'am/miss I don't believe so.

If one carefully reads the Sattipatthana Sutta, the Buddha put emphasis on awareness, not whether the breath is long or short.

Don't mean to be polemical but I do think this is an EXTREMELY important point.

Thank you,
Stefos

[toyboy]

hi Stefos

the "Unborn" is certainly one definition of Nibbana but, more simply, the Nikayas also define Nibbana as the cessation of greed, hatred & delusion. therefore, the mind without greed, hatred & delusion experiences the unborn (of non-becoming) and remaining unconditioned by greed, hatred & delusion.

the more simple definition of Nibbana may make the more esoteric definition of Nibbana more clear


'Vipassana' means 'clearly seeing' the impermanence (rise & fall; appearance & disappearance), unsatisfactoriness & selflessness of phenomema. Jhana (mental stillness, purity & clarity) enables excellent vipassana to occur because if the mind cannot remain constantly clear, then constantly seeing the impermanence of mental objects cannot occur.

Jhana also causes certain mental objects (such as feelings) to manifest in way that is more pronounced than normal and therefore allows the true nature of these mental objects (such as feelings) to be seen more clearly.

the 4 brahmaviharas simply (but indirectly) help develop jhana because ill-will/hatred/anger/etc are obstacles to jhana. but to develop jhana, the mind must practise more than just the 4 brahmaviharas. the mind must also practise letting go

kind regards

Hi Element,

I believe that Nibbana is also a Transcendental experience also and not only a "release" from self sir/ma'am/miss.

I don't perceive that the Buddha taught the 8 fold path, jhanas, metta-bhavana, etc. only to say "Well, Nibbana is a psycho-physiological state and when you die, "you're" dead, in truth." Please understand that I am not stating that YOU are saying this! I'm only rhetorically speaking, as it were.

The Buddha entered into ParaNibbana at his death. Not only this but the iddhis caused by the Buddha speak of a transcendental background & source as well.

What do you think?
Thank you,
Stefos

[AlexanderPalamayr]

Hi Deshy,

No sir/ma'am/miss I don't believe so.

If one carefully reads the Sattipatthana Sutta, the Buddha put emphasis on awareness, not whether the breath is long or short.

Don't mean to be polemical but I do think this is an EXTREMELY important point.

Thank you,
Stefos

The "EXTREMELY important point" IMO is that without noble right concentration (samma samadhi), vipassana can be quite fruitless. This is why I said "jhana-induced vipassana".

[KasaBalak]

If one carefully reads the Sattipatthana Sutta, the Buddha put emphasis on awareness, not whether the breath is long or short.

Don't mean to be polemical but I do think this is an EXTREMELY important point.

hi Stefos

you may not believe me but the Buddha did not actually speak the Satipatthana Sutta because it does not bear the characteristics of a sutta spoken by Buddha, i.e., in proper sequence & order. the Satipatthana Sutta is simply a disorderly compilation of various teachings Buddha gave. the path to Nibbana cannot be understood by following the Satipatthana Sutta

the Buddha gave prominence to the breath as the meditation object in the Anapanasati sutta.

in the Anapanasati sutta, Buddha said:

Anapanasati that one has developed & made much of perfects the four foundations of mindfulness in SN 54.11, it is reported Buddha said:

Bhikkhus, if any wanderers of other sects ask you: "In what dwelling, friends, did the Blessed One generally dwell during the rains residence? - being asked thus, you should answer those wanderers thus: "During the rains residence, friends, the Blessed One generally dwelt in the concentration by mindfulness with breathing".

If anyone speaking rightly could say of anything: "It is a noble dwelling, a divine dwelling, the Tathagata's dwelling", it is of concentration by mindfulness with breathing that one could rightly say this. what is an EXTREMELY important point is this, namely, the Anapanasati sutta includes the vipassana meditation resulting in Nibbana, in which the Satipatthana sutta does not:

FOURTH TETRAD

(13) He trains himself; constantly contemplating impermanence I shall breathe in. He trains himself; constantly contemplating impermanence I shall breathe out.

(14) He trains himself; constantly contemplating fading away I shall breathe in. He trains himself: constantly contemplating fading away I shall breathe out.

(15) He trains himself: constantly contemplating quenching [Nibbana] I shall breathe in. He trains himself: constantly contemplating quenching I shall breathe out.

(16) He trains himself: constantly contemplating tossing back I shall breathe in. He trains himself: constantly contemplating tossing back I shall breathe out.

Bhikkhus, this is how Anapanasati that one has developed and made much of has great fruit and great benefit. thus Buddha taught:

So if a monk should wish: 'May neither my body be fatigued nor my eyes, and may my mind, through lack of clinging, be released from fermentations (asava),' then he should attend carefully to this same concentration through mindfulness with in-&-out breathing.

Dipa Sutta kind regards

[stastony]

I don't perceive that the Buddha taught the 8 fold path, jhanas, metta-bhavana, etc. only to say "Well, Nibbana is a psycho-physiological state and when you die, "you're" dead, in truth." Please understand that I am not stating that YOU are saying this! I'm only rhetorically speaking, as it were.

Buddha taught Nibbana is a psychological freedom and, at death: "the five aggregates end."

Buddha taught psychologically:

What I teach now as before, O monks, is [only] suffering and the cessation of [freedom from] suffering.

Alagaddupama Sutta Buddha taught psychologically:

So then, bhikkhus, the holy life is led not for, gain, honour and fame, not for the endowment of virtues, not for the endowment of concentration, not for the endowment of knowledges and vision. Bhikkhus, it is for the unshakeable release [freedom] of mind that is the essence and fulfilment of the holy life .

The Major Discourse on Heartwood Buddha taught:

Then, friend Yamaka, how would you answer if you are thus asked: A monk, a worthy one, with no more mental effluents: what is he on the break-up of the body, after death?

Thus asked, I would answer, 'Form is inconstant... Feeling... Perception... Fabrications... Consciousness is inconstant. That which is inconstant is unsatisfactory. That which is unsatisfactory has ceased and gone to its end'.

Very good, my friend Yamaka. Very good.

Yamaka Sutta
Regards

[Evdokia]

Krishnamurti was keen to describe "practice" as something one did without force and without a fixed point, something that I all to often see in reading Theravada works from various authors, not the Nikayas themselves.

This is because the simplicity of the Nikayas are difficult to comprehend where there is a lack of proper trust & discernment.

The Nikayas state about proper concentration:

And what is the faculty of concentration? There is the case where a monk, a disciple of the noble ones, making it his object to let go, attains concentration, attains singleness of mind.

SN 48.9 & 10 This was said by the Lord...Bhikkhus, a bhikkhu should so investigate that as he investigates, his consciousness is not distracted and diffused externally, and internally not fixed, and so that by not grasping anything he remains undisturbed. If his consciousness is not distracted and diffused externally, and internally not fixed, and if by not grasping anything he remains undisturbed, then there is no coming into existence of birth, ageing, death and suffering in the future. (John D. Ireland)

Iti 3.45 Now what, monks, is noble right concentration with its supports & requisite conditions? Any singleness of mind equipped with these seven factors — right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort & right mindfulness — is called noble right concentration with its supports & requisite conditions.

Maha-cattarisaka Sutta: The Great Forty

[MineOffedOvex]

A particularly old debate is "Gradual vs. Sudden" enlightenment, which of course, really is theoretical in once sense because of the actual need for practice.

Pre-Nibbanic states are not new to "Buddhism" as the Buddhas' teachers were not Buddhists and from my research, the Buddha took up an Upanishadic stance in accepting them as teachers and in doing pranayama or as the Digha Nikaya states "experiencing violent winds when stopping the in/out breaths out of the mouth, mouth & nose, and mouth/nose/ears and mouth/nose/ears/closing the eyes"

Comments?

Sure.

Buddha rejected the pranayama that bore him no result. Buddha realised the violent pranayama he formerly practised was a fruitless path. Buddha explained in his 1st sermon:

Bhikkhus, these two extremes ought not to be cultivated by one gone forth from the house-life. What are the two? There is devotion to indulgence of pleasure in the objects of sensual desire, which is inferior, low, vulgar, ignoble and leads to no good; and there is devotion to self-torment, which is painful, ignoble and leads to no good.

Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta: Setting Rolling the Wheel of Truth Buddha did not teach of "sudden" full enlightenment. Full enlightenment is gradual. But the 1st stage of initial enlightenment, i.e., stream-entry, is certainly sudden. But sudden enlightenment is not full enlightenment. Buddha taught four stages of enlightenment.

Kind regards

[maxtp]

...the Buddha put emphasis on awareness, not whether the breath is long or short. Don't mean to be polemical but I do think this is an EXTREMELY important point.

hi again, Stefos

what exactly is awareness? is it awareness of the discursive mind? what exactly is the purpose or goal of awareness?

in my understanding, when the mind has genuine awareness, it is silent. when the mind is aware & silent, it naturally converges with the in & out breathing

do not many esoteric Hindu traditions designate the breathing in & out as one of the "signs" of God? in Buddhism, the in & out breathing is the preliminary "sign" of right awareness. the Bible reports Jesus Christ "breathed" the Holy Spirit onto his disciples. what is "spirit" other than "breath"? is the Holy Spirit not Anapanasati?

to alienate Anapanasati from 'awareness' does not conform with most meditative traditions

regards

[AngelBee]

hi again, Stefos

what exactly is awareness? is it awareness of the discursive mind? what exactly is the purpose or goal of awareness?

in my understanding, when the mind has genuine awareness, it is silent. when the mind is aware & silent, it naturally converges with the in & out breathing

do not many esoteric Hindu traditions designate the breathing in & out as one of the "signs" of God? in Buddhism, the in & out breathing is the preliminary "sign" of right awareness. the Bible reports Jesus Christ "breathed" the Holy Spirit onto his disciples. what is "spirit" other than "breath"? is the Holy Spirit not Anapanasati?

to alienate Anapanasati from 'awareness' does not conform with most meditative traditions

regards

It depends essentially Element WHOM you ask, Doesn't it?
The Vedantist says be aware of being, that's it.
The Theravadan says be aware of body, breath, thought, etc.
The Christian says be aware of your fallen nature & God's spirit inside you at all times.

Awareness means various things in various spiritualities sir.

I will agree with you that "genuine" awareness is born from a silent mind or better yet IN silent perception of mind.
I do not believe that the mind converges w/the in & out breath, as the brain (OR mind?) sends out various waves of Theta, Beta, Delta and Alpha wavelengths each brainwave length denotes a different function of brain at least.

The word "Hindu" is inaccurate as "Hindu" denotes a HUGE umbrella encompassing spiritualities which are Atheistic, Nihilistic, and Deistic.

Regarding Jesus, the New Testament says he breathed upon him, in English, however what does the Greek say?
Furthermore, Jesus being God gave them the gift of the Holy Spirit, the New Testament says.

Finally sir, No I am not saying that anapanasati is separate from awareness. The issue is, is that the focus is understanding and not "Gee, that REALLY was a long breath" yes the breath is understood but not obsessed over, If I could say that.

Thank you,
Stefos

[EzequielTMann]

Sure.

Buddha rejected the pranayama that bore him no result. Buddha realised the violent pranayama he formerly practised was a fruitless path. Buddha explained in his 1st sermon:


Buddha did not teach of "sudden" full enlightenment. Full enlightenment is gradual. But the 1st stage of initial enlightenment, i.e., stream-entry, is certainly sudden. But sudden enlightenment is not full enlightenment. Buddha taught four stages of enlightenment.

Kind regards

Understood sir.

Enlightenment, according to the Nikayas, is not a fixed point however the "self" does get transcended.

Regarding the "Gradual vs. Sudden" debate:
It all can become a matter of semantics IF one just assumes anything one wants.
I say this in order to put proper perspective on meditation.

Krishnamurti was keen about this point as he disbelieved "methods" to enlightenment.
The man never dismissed meditation or awareness but put them in proper context, if you read his works.

Having said that, Krishnamurti's Choiceless Awareness and Dzogchen's Naked Awareness is the same thing actually.

I believe that what the Buddha taught was also Choiceless Awareness but people have taken it to be a "method" such as many erroneously stating that "concentration is meditation" when it is not, Not according to Buddhadhamma or Krishnamurti or Dzogchen or Vedanta, for that matter.

Be well sir,
Stefos

[WertyNtont]

in my understanding, when the mind has genuine awareness, it is silent. when the mind is aware & silent,

Agreed, though one can be aware of a busy thinking mind also but it is harder and when one is there is a sense of silence that is somehow bigger and deeper than all the chatter, which is what I assume you are referring to.

it naturally converges with the in & out breathing

Why? I would would have said it naturally converges on whatever is appropriate to be aware of at the time. If at the time one is practising anapanasati then yes, if practising a different technique then maybe not, if eating lunch or walking or doing any number of other activities then awareness should converge of the activity at hand not on the in & out breathing specifically.

do not many esoteric Hindu traditions designate the breathing in & out as one of the "signs" of God? in Buddhism, the in & out breathing is the preliminary "sign" of right awareness. the Bible reports Jesus Christ "breathed" the Holy Spirit onto his disciples. what is "spirit" other than "breath"? is the Holy Spirit not Anapanasati?

to alienate Anapanasati from 'awareness' does not conform with most meditative traditions

The breathing in & out is a preliminary sign of being alive, placing ones awareness on breathing in & out is a very good way of developing the minds capacity to be aware, probably the best way to start for beginners, but it's not the only way. Understanding the difference between the process of breathing and the process of awareness that monitors breathing among other things doesn't consititute alienation, it sows a deeper understanding of the mind-body processes.

In my experience giving all importance to one meditation technique is a good recipe for getting into a rut with it.

[houkbsdov]

Sure.

Buddha rejected the pranayama that bore him no result. Buddha realised the violent pranayama he formerly practised was a fruitless path. Buddha explained in his 1st sermon:


Buddha did not teach of "sudden" full enlightenment. Full enlightenment is gradual. But the 1st stage of initial enlightenment, i.e., stream-entry, is certainly sudden. But sudden enlightenment is not full enlightenment. Buddha taught four stages of enlightenment.

Kind regards

Hi again Element,

A BIG disclaimer first: This is a sincere question coming from a sincere heart. I don't desire to argue. PLEASE understand this. Thank you.

I'm curious to know something sir, miss, ma'am:

Do you believe that Theravada is the "original" teaching of the Buddha?

My research has shown that there were other "schools" who held different Abhidhammas who were Pre-Mahayana.
Ch'an, Dzogchen, Mahayana, etc. reflect another aspect of Buddhist school.

It seems as if sometimes modern Buddhists say "This is it" and "This is not it" yet I see no research done. Honestly.

The Buddha, to me, taught ONE specific goal and ONE specific body of teachings not a syncretistic system of "buddhism" such as what my friend told me which is practiced in some places in Thailand nor the, in my opinion, the Pure Land cult. Indonesia also is notorious for syncretism as well.

Ultimately, I want to understand what the Buddha originally taught and see how changes happened.

Thank you,
Stefos

[payporanymn]

Agreed, though one can be aware of a busy thinking mind also but it is harder and when one is there is a sense of silence that is somehow bigger and deeper than all the chatter, which is what I assume you are referring to.



Why? I would would have said it naturally converges on whatever is appropriate to be aware of at the time. If at the time one is practising anapanasati then yes, if practising a different technique then maybe not, if eating lunch or walking or doing any number of other activities then awareness should converge of the activity at hand not on the in & out breathing specifically.



The breathing in & out is a preliminary sign of being alive, placing ones awareness on breathing in & out is a very good way of developing the minds capacity to be aware, probably the best way to start for beginners, but it's not the only way. Understanding the difference between the process of breathing and the process of awareness that monitors breathing among other things doesn't consititute alienation, it sows a deeper understanding of the mind-body processes.

In my experience giving all importance to one meditation technique is a good recipe for getting into a rut with it.

My experience with breath and mind:

I have panic attacks and I perceive that when I have panic attacks the breath is erratic and is slower unless my panic spikes and then the breathing becomes faster until full blown panic ensues. Not a fun place to be, let me tell you!

When angry, I notice the breath becoming more "deliberate" in the in and out breath.

To me, "watching the breath" is not Anapanasati, it is "watching the breath." To me, REAL Anapanasati is awareness of breath, body, etc.
I really do not appreciate concentration being taught as meditation, i.e. in many modern "meditation" groups.
It simply and truly is not.

The Sutta is deep. "Watching the breath" is not.

Thank you,
Stefos

[9uWzBx4l]

I have panic attacks and I perceive that when I have panic attacks the breath is erratic and is slower unless my panic spikes and then the breathing becomes faster until full blown panic ensues. Not a fun place to be, let me tell you!

When angry, I notice the breath becoming more "deliberate" in the in and out breath.

This is a good example of how awareness can help one identify a problem early on, because you've learned to be aware of the breathing you can identify a problem arising early on. The same is true of awareness of the sensations in the body, you might notice a faster heartbeat, tightness in the stomach, heat etc.

The idea is when you notice this is to place your awareness on the sensations in the body or the breathing etc rather than on the situation that is triggering it, the thoughts, the story etc. Get interested in the arising and passing away that you can observe in the body and observe them objectively without reacting further and they will cease to control the outcome.

I've never had a panic attack myself but I do believe this approach as taught by the Buddha can help anyone overcome these kinds of things.