[Anakattawl]

dear forum

despite having no expertise, i have tried to examine the Pali about the doctrine of "seven more lives" but cannot find the word "lives" in the Pali

do we have any ideas about what the Buddha may have been saying about the stream enterer that has broken the first three fetters?

thanks





Translator: Bhikkhu Bodhi That which remains in the state of having at most seven remaining lifetimes is next to nothing: it's not a hundredth, a thousandth, a one hundred-thousandth, when compared with the previous mass of suffering.

Translator: Bhikkhu Thanissaro Neva satimaṃ kalaṃ [1/100 part] upeti na sahassimaṃ kalaṃ [1/1000 part] upeti na satasahassimaṃ kalaṃ [1/100,000 part] upeti purimaṃ dukkhakkhandhaṃ parikkhīṇaṃ pariyādiṇṇaṃ upanidhāya yadidaṃ sattakkhattuṃparamatā.

Neva (indecl.) [na+eva] neither

Satima (adj.) the hundredth

Kalā 1. a small fraction of a whole

Upeti [upa + i] to go to (with acc.), come to, approach, undergo, attain

Purima (adj.) [compar. -- superl. formation fr. *pura, cp. Sk. purima] preceding, former, earlier, before (opp. pacchima)

dukkhakkhandhaŋ vyapānudi Th 2, 162. -- (b) lobha˚ dosa˚ moha˚ the three ingredients or integrations of greed, suffering and bewilderment, lit. "the big bulk or mass of greed"

Parikkhīṇa [pp. of parikkhīyati] exhausted, wasted, decayed, extinct

Pariyādinna exhausted, finished, put an end to, consummated

Upanidhāya (indecl.) [ger. of upa + nidahati of dhā] comparing in comparison, as prep. w. acc. "compared with"

Yadidaṃ : [(yaṃ + idaṃ), ind.] which is this; that is; namely.

Sattakkhattuŋ (adv.) seven times

Paramatā (f.) [fr. parama, Vedic paramatā highest posi- tion] the highest quantity, measure on the outside, minimum or maximum

[feAilei1]

Isn't the Buddha encouraging his audience into stream wining efforts? The translation given by Bhikkhu Thanissaro in the OP make me think that seven is just an approximation so to give an idea that what is left is nothing, even for a single life span... Don't know... Just guessing...

[tipoketpu]

Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation in my hard copy of the SN is, "...as there is a maximum of seven more lives."

You're right, though, Element. There is no word for "lives" in the Pali. It might be that it was elided in the original because it would have been understood from the context. Or, it could be a later fill-in based on a best guess. Either way, I don't think it wise to take such things too literally. The suttas are full of rhetorical, metaphorical and symbolic speech. Much or most of the significance of that sort of speech has been lost, and it was almost certainly not meant to be taken literally in the first place. I think all we need to garner from this passage is that the Sotāpanna is a lot closer to the goal than someone who hasn't lost the first three fetters.

[VUzgOhgv]

I agree FBM. The words of the teachings come to us who have followed hundreds of years later due to human memory from spoken words in conversations rather than formal speeches.

[AssinHT]

Hmm...I'm not even sure the suttas were ever ver batim records of actual conversations. To me, a much more likely process would have included, first, a conversation, second, a meeting to formalize that conversation into concise verse (for ease of memorization) and third, a repetition of the finalized form to others for dissemination.

But my point didn't have much to do with faulty memory. I just meant that the original suttas contained allusions and symbolic imagery that would have been obvious to the listeners of that day. Two and a half milennia later and in a foreign culture, most of those allusions and symbolisms are lost on us.

For example, the suttas usually start out giving a place name, like "Rajagaha in the Bamboo Grove, the Squirrel Sanctuary." Scholars have figured out what the Squirrel Sanctuary was, but did the specific location "Rajagaha" carry any other connotations? Let's say I'm telling you a story and I tell you it takes place in Texas. You'd automatically get a certain image of not just the surroundings, but of the people, the sound of their voices, their history, etc. If I told you the same story but placed it in London or Madrid, you'd make very different connotations of it. The unspoken connotations in the suttas are lost to us.

With regards to the OP, the "lives" vocabulary may have been such a connotation, or it may have been a best guess by later interpeters. Either way, I think it's taken way too literally. I think all we need to do is consider the difference between 7 lives and endless cycles of rebirth. The image is more important than the exact numbers.

I read this sutta as an exhortation for beginners to get started, as well as an indication of what they should start working on first - the first three fetters, which are belief in self, doubt about the teachings and clinging to rites and rituals.

[Smalmslobby]

Yes, I wasn't really concentrating on the problems with human memory either. More that, as you have highlighted, the language usage was that of the time as it was spoken and, as you have explained well above, the words may have had greater meaning to people at that time than is evident from translation literally today by scholars.

[AlbrtJhnsqw]

Ah. Gotcha.

[Rqqneujr]

I hope I do not offend with my comments. The Suttas are accounts of the Lord Buddha's verbal teachings ( with all the nuances for dramatic effects which all speakers use to get the message across )rather than scholarly literary works - they were given to be used; actually put into practice rather than being studied and discussed.

[DurryVony]

No offence! I don't see any problem with studying and discussing the suttas, though. However, some people do put more value in the words of scholars and analysts instead of the suttas, and that's a problem...

[brraverishhh]

No problem with studying and discussing ... we do this though to put understandings into practice. I don't think the aim was to create a Canon to be studied, rather how to bring about relief from the suffering in life, and so ( as you have said FBM ) paragraphs like the one Element has highlighted above are important for the picture they present rather than the actual numbers quoted.

[Ankeseiband]

Indeed.

[PickEmUp]

For me, the excerpt does not read well but a possibility that arises is "the breakthough" mentioned in the sutta can occur seven more times at most.

That is, there are seven more fetters for the stream enterer to break.

Just an idea.

[Nurba]

I hope I do not offend with my comments. The Suttas are accounts of the Lord Buddha's verbal teachings ( with all the nuances for dramatic effects which all speakers use to get the message across )rather than scholarly literary works - they were given to be used; actually put into practice rather than being studied and discussed.

Um, the Buddha was clear that he intended that his teachings be studied and discussed AND put into practice.

[vioppyskype]

I agree FBM. The words of the teachings come to us who have followed hundreds of years later due to human memory from spoken words in conversations rather than formal speeches.

The words of the teachings were passed down and memorized by rote by folks who had vested interest in getting them right and nothing else to do. This isn't the game of chinese whispers you would like to make it out to be.

[hauptdaunnila]

For me, the excerpt does not read well but a possibility that arises is "the breakthough" mentioned in the sutta can occur seven more times at most.

That is, there are seven more fetters for the stream enterer to break.

Just an idea.

That seems quite reasonable.

[Indoendris]

I agree FBM. The words of the teachings come to us who have followed hundreds of years later due to human memory from spoken words in conversations rather than formal speeches.

There's a lot of repetition in the suttas. I would guess that before they were written down the monks probably learned them originally by repetitive chanting and them passed them on to younger monks in this way.

I know from my own chanting of Tibetan Pujas in the past, that one can easily learn accurately in this way. I can still probably chant the liturgy of at least 3 or 4 different pujas without the text as well as various other chants.

Anyway, sorry, I'm off topic !

[freediscountplanrrxip]

The words of the teachings were passed down and memorized by rote by folks who had vested interest in getting them right and nothing else to do. This isn't the game of chinese whispers you would like to make it out to be.

Not sure how you come to the conclusion that I am making out a Pali canon sutta to be the result of chinese whispers from what I have said.
Indeed it would have taken commitment and dedication to ensure the teaching was recorded in a way that could be transmitted meaningfully and accurately to people in a way which is understood and able to be put into action, rather than needing to be studied and anaylsed like a scholar.
The type of study and discussion needed can be done by most people - educated or not.
Theoretical knowledge of the Pali canon is only good if you want to teach others, and the skillful teachers I have found in Buddhism have been committed practitioners also.

[LongaDonga]

Is the seven further lifetimes of a stream-enterer a myth?

Perhaps it could mean seven further levels of understanding/ accomplishment?

[Psymoussy]

Indeed it would have taken commitment and dedication to ensure the teaching was recorded in a way that could be transmitted meaningfully...

In my experience, most suttas transmit excellently but this one has a hiccup. May need to consult a real scholar.

[giDdfezP]

Not sure how you come to the conclusion that I am making out a Pali canon sutta to be the result of chinese whispers from what I have said.

Yeah, you never say what you said. I get it.

Indeed it would have taken commitment and dedication to ensure the teaching was recorded in a way that could be transmitted meaningfully and accurately to people in a way which is understood and able to be put into action, rather than needing to be studied and anaylsed like a scholar. You are really hung up on this dogmatic mahayana antiintellectual-ism thing. Books are evil! Burn the books! The Buddha placed a great deal of emphasis on hearing the Dhamma correctly, learning it correctly, discussing it, and not misapprehending it.

The type of study and discussion needed can be done by most people - educated or not.
Theoretical knowledge of the Pali canon is only good if you want to teach others, Nonsense. If you don't know what it is that you are practising and why, you are just spinning your wheels. More mahavajra dogmatism.

and the skillful teachers I have found in Buddhism have been committed practitioners also. That doesn't really mean anything. What "teachers" have you found who were not "committed practitioners?


But I note that you said "ALSO" this time, instead of "RATHER THAN". Still the same baseless dogmatic assertion. But again, you never say what you said.