[tiereenny]

dear Dhamma friends

in his 1st sermon, Buddha taught about the Four Noble Truths, in which craving was identified as the cause of suffering

in his 2nd sermon, Buddha taught about the Three Characteristics, of impermanence, unsatisfactoriness & not-self

after Buddha taught his 2nd sermon, each hearer reached full enlightenment

it follows, the question may be asked: "Does the scope of Buddha-Dhamma extend beyond the 1st two sermons?"

[Precturge]

So, what would it mean to say "the scope of the Dhamma extends only to the first two sermons"? What is this 'scope'?

[GlarlraTpople]

for example, it seems by the suttas Dependent Origination is simply a more detailed explanation of the Four Noble Truths, as follows:

Now, the Blessed One has said: "Whoever sees dependent co-arising sees the Dhamma; whoever sees the Dhamma sees dependent co-arising." And these things — the five clung to aggregates — are dependently co-arisen. Any desire, embracing, grasping & holding-on to these five clung to aggregates is the origination of stress. Any subduing of desire & passion, any abandoning of desire & passion for these five clung to aggregates is the cessation of stress.

MN 28 Dependent Origination differs from the Four Noble Truths in that it traces the origination of suffering (further) back to ignorance rather than to (the nearer) craving. however, apart from this, the 4NTs and DO appear essentially to be of the same scope

similarly, the teaching of Emptiness (sunnata) is a more pervasive & broad explanation of not-self (anatta):

Insofar as it is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self: Thus it is said, Ananda, that the world is empty.

SN 35.85 or the teachings about the three kinds of defilement (greed, hatred & delusion) is an extrapolation of the three kinds of craving from in the 1st sermon

Bhikkhus, all is burning. Burning with what? Burning with the fire of lust, with the fire of hate, with the fire of delusion.

3rd sermon thus, is there scope for any other teachings that pertain to the ending of suffering, Nibbana, etc, which are beyond the scope, i.e., beyond the causality, established in the first two sermons?

[Aleksis]

for example, it seems by the suttas Dependent Origination is simply a more detailed explanation of the Four Noble Truths, as follows:


Dependent Origination differs from the Four Noble Truths in that it traces the origination of suffering (further) back to ignorance rather than to (the nearer) craving. however, apart from this, the 4NTs and DO appear essentially to be of the same scope

similarly, the teaching of Emptiness (sunnata) is a more pervasive & broad explanation of not-self (anatta):


or the teachings about the three kinds of defilement (greed, hatred & delusion) is an extrapolation of the three kinds of craving from in the 1st sermon


thus, is there scope for any other teachings that pertain to the ending of suffering, Nibbana, etc, which are beyond the scope, i.e., beyond the causality, established in the first two sermons?

To me the 'fire of delusion' is not succinct as to the degree and variance of "delusion".

If one is partially or totally deluded there needs to be a 'reality'?? either at the secular level or beyond..........................?

[arrismVam]

My thought is that the scope of Buddha's teaching is the reality of human existence, Dependent Origination and Sunyata are the 'grand unified theories'. 4 Noble Truth, anicca, anatta and others are specific theories for specific observations.

At the risk of going off a complete tangent, I think the interesting question here is why Buddha's early students can obtain enlightenment upon hearing just 2 sermons, and not whether or not 4 Noble Truth, anicca, anatta are the entirety of Buddha's teaching. Because, after all, people don't become enlightened after reading the first 2 sermons anymore.

What this tells me is that Buddha's early students had a lot more in common (culturally, educational, experiences, linguistically...etc) to Buddha than we do today. It is almost like they are all trying to solve the same equation as Buddha, but they all have a mistake in their solutions somewhere. Upon hearing Buddha's sermons, they all realized their mistakes, changed a plus sign to minus sign, and viola, solution solved and enlightened.

As students of Buddha becomes more and more different from him, more methods are needed to teach people with different dispositions, cultural background, language...etc, and we end up with the numbers of schools and traditions that we have today. Furthermore, casual observations tell us that these schools are mostly cultural-regional based. There are reasons that Theravada and Tibetan Buddhism are not popular with Chinese based Buddhists, but Chan and Pure Land and now Humanistic have great support. Or that western world seems to accept schools that focuses on meditation with more ease.

My personal speculation is that if Buddha awaken in U.S. today, his first sermon might not necessary be about the 4 Noble Truth.

[KahiroSamo]

thus, is there scope for any other teachings that pertain to the ending of suffering, Nibbana, etc, which are beyond the scope, i.e., beyond the causality, established in the first two sermons?

Not in my opinion. The very first time I read the Four Noble Truths there was a kind of certainty that it was a definitive teaching about human behaviour and condition.

It seems that the myriad teachings spoken by Gotama Buddha are a needed refinement of what the 4NT teach. So, I think it is highly possible that with just the 4NT enlightenment can be reached.

The second sermon is an example of this. The first two Noble Truths are about a deep understanding of Dukkha and its origin where anicca and anatta in the context of Dukkha are a core aspect if one is to understand the first two Noble Truths.

... and the Fourth Noble Truth is the backbone of a three fold practice so to develop a peaceful mind in the state of Nibbana.

But for sure there are other approaches to this issue.

Any comments?