[pitoufsd]

dear friends

below i have listed some translations of the stock phrase for right mindfulness.

are there any nuances in the various translations that resonate most strongly with us & our experience; that we feel are more beneficial; or that we feel may be detrimental?

thanks


And what, monks, is right mindfulness?

There is the case where a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, aware & mindful — putting away greed & distress with reference to the world.

He remains focused on feelings in & of themselves — ardent, aware & mindful — putting away greed & distress with reference to the world.

He remains focused on the mind in & of itself — ardent, aware & mindful — putting away greed & distress with reference to the world.

He remains focused on mental qualities in & of themselves — ardent, aware & mindful — putting away greed & distress with reference to the world.

This, monks, is called right mindfulness.

Bhikkhu Thanissaro Herein (in this teaching) a monk lives contemplating the body in the body, ardent, clearly comprehending and mindful, having overcome, in this world, covetousness and grief; he lives contemplating feelings in feelings, ardent, clearly comprehending and mindful, having overcome, in this world, covetousness and grief; he lives contemplating consciousness in consciousness, ardent, clearly comprehending and mindful, having overcome, in this world, covetousness and grief; he lives contemplating mental objects in mental objects, ardent, clearly comprehending and mindful, having overcome, in this world, covetousness and grief.

Nyanasatta Thera Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu lives contemplating the body in the body, ardent, clearly comprehending (it) and mindful (of it), having overcome, in this world, covetousness and grief; he lives contemplating the feelings in the feelings, ardent, clearly comprehending (them) and mindful (of them), having overcome, in this world, covetousness and grief; he lives contemplating consciousness in consciousness, ardent, clearly comprehending (it) and mindful (of it), having overcome in this world covetousness and grief; he lives contemplating mental objects in mental objects, ardent, clearly comprehending (them) and mindful (of them), having overcome, in this world, covetousness and grief.

Soma Thera One who lives constantly contemplating body in bodies, strives to burn up defilements, comprehends readily and is mindful, in order to abandon all liking and disliking toward the world.

One who lives constantly contemplating feeling in feelings, strives to burn up defilements, comprehends readily and is mindful, in order to abandon all liking and disliking toward the world.

One who lives constantly contemplating mind in the mind, strives to burn up defilements, comprehends readily and is mindful, in order to abandon all liking and disliking toward the world.

One who lives constantly contemplating Dhamma in dhammas, strives to burn up defilements, comprehends readily, and is mindful, in order to abandon all liking and disliking toward the world.

Bhikkhu Buddhadasa And what, monks, is right mindfulness? Herein, a monk dwells contemplating the body in the body, ardent, clearly comprehending and mindful, having put away covetousness and grief concerning the world. He dwells contemplating feelings in feelings... states of mind in states of mind... phenomena in phenomena, ardent, clearly comprehending and mindful, having put away covetousness and grief concerning the world.

Bhikkhu Bodhi And what, monks, is right mindfulness? Here, monks, a monk
abides contemplating a body in the body... a feeling in the
feelings... a mind in the mind... a dhamma in the dhammas –
ardent, clearly comprehending and mindful, having removed
desire and aversion for the world.

Bhikkhu Sujato Katamā ca, bhikkhave, sammāsati? Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu kāye kāyānupassī viharati ātāpī sampajāno satimā vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṃ; vedanāsu vedanānupassī viharati ātāpī sampajāno satimā vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṃ; citte cittānupassī viharati ātāpī sampajāno satimā vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṃ; dhammesu dhammānupassī viharati ātāpī sampajāno satimā vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṃ. Ayaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, sammāsati.

[AffipgyncDync]

The metaphor "to burn up" has always been an effective one to me, especially in the context of the meaning of Nirvana/Nibbana. I gravitate toward subtraction as opposed to addition. So rather than attribute some extravagant meaning to certain states, I find it easier to note what has been extinguished, as in the case of extinguishing a fire.

To illustrate what I mean by this, in the Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta, the Buddha describes Nirvana/Nibbana as the exhaustion of sustenance, like a fire no longer fed by fuel. Enlightenment is the end of suffering, and suffering's fuel is craving. Tanha (literally thirst) is the sustenance for the fire. Nirvana/Nibbana is the blowing out of this fire.

Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta (MN 72)

"And suppose someone were to ask you, Vaccha, 'This fire burning in front of you, dependent on what is it burning?' Thus asked, how would you reply?"

"...I would reply, 'This fire burning in front of me is burning dependent on grass & timber as its sustenance.'"

"If the fire burning in front of you were to go out, would you know that, 'This fire burning in front of me has gone out'?"

"...yes..."

"And suppose someone were to ask you, 'This fire that has gone out in front of you, in which direction from here has it gone? East? West? North? Or south?' Thus asked, how would you reply?"

"That doesn't apply, Master Gotama. Any fire burning dependent on a sustenance of grass and timber, being unnourished — from having consumed that sustenance and not being offered any other — is classified simply as 'out' (unbound)."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit....072.than.html In terms of enlightenment, the flame is blown out: the fires of greed, hatred, and delusion are cooled. Through Nirvana/Nibbana (blowing out, cooling), one leaves the fuel of craving behind, and thus extinguishes suffering for good. Likewise, in the context of mindfulness, burning up defilements really strikes a chord with me for this same reason.

As for the Magga-Vibhanga Sutta (SN 45.8), all other translations given above use the word ardent in place of Buddhadasa's "to burn up". I feel that "to burn up" provides a more concrete representation of right mindfulness. This makes Buddhadasa's translation easiest for me to understand and relate to personally.

[NarhozNic]

'to burn up' is a translation of 'ātāpī'

Ātāpin (adj.) [fr. ātāpa, cp. BSk. ātāpin Av. Ś i.233; ii. 194 = Divy 37; 618] ardént, zealous, strenuous, active D iii.58, 76 sq., 141 (+ sampajāna)

Ātāpa [ā + tāpa fr. tap; cp. tāpeti] glow, heat; fig. ardour, keen endeavour, or perhaps better "torturing"

Ātāpeti [ā + tāpeti] to burn, scorch; fig. to torment, inflict pain, torture M i.341 (+ paritāpeti); S iv.337; Miln 314, 315. this is similar to Dhammapada verse 184

Khantī paramaṃ tapo titikkhā, nibbānaṃ paramaṃ vadanti buddhā

Enduring patience is the highest austerity. "Nibbana is supreme," say the Buddhas. (Buddharakkhita)

Patient endurance: the foremost austerity. Unbinding: the foremost, so say the Awakened. (Thanissaro)

Patience endurance burns up defilement supremely: All who know say Nibbana is the supreme (Buddhadasa)

Dhammapada

apa & Tapo [from tapati, cp. Lat. tepor, heat] 1. torment, punishment, penance, religious austerity, selfchastisement, ascetic practice.

[maclaudser]

The metaphor "to burn up" has always been an effective one to me...

thanks Abhaya

i like the English term 'covetousness' because it not only has the nuance of desire but also the nuance of 'appropriation' (taking ownership; stealing; attachment)




Therefore, monks, give up whatever is not yours. Your giving it up will for a long time bring you welfare and happiness. What is it that is not yours? Corporeality is not yours. Give it up! Your giving it up will for a long time bring you welfare and happiness. Feeling is not yours. Give it up! Your giving it up will for a long bring you welfare and happiness. Perception is not yours. Give it up! Your giving it up will for a long time bring you welfare and happiness. Mental formations are not yours. Give them up! Your giving them up will for a long time bring you welfare and happiness. Consciousness is not yours. Give it up! Your giving it up will for a long time bring you welfare and happiness.

MN 22

[casefexas]

Not knowing Pali but just a few concepts learnt here, after several readings the quote of Bikkhu Buddhadasa is the one that has more appeal for me.

The instruction is clear, it has rhythm and leaves a good taste of dispassion.

[adesseridopaw]

Hi Element

Re.#1, I have never studied Pali but I noticed that 'dhammas' only occured in the B.Buddhadasa and B.Sujato versions and that 'phenomena' was the alternative to that in B. Bodhi's translation.

I think I prefer Bhikkhu Bodhi's version.

[andrekuper]

Not knowing Pali...

Re.#1, I have never studied Pali....

hi

my intention for starting the thread is not for it to be a Pali study. the intention is to simply discuss the english words in respect to our experience

regards

[Amorsesombabs]

I noticed that 'dhammas' only occured in the B.Buddhadasa and B.Sujato versions and that 'phenomena' was the alternative to that in B. Bodhi's translation.

the word 'dhamma' or 'dhamme' has many meanings, such as 'thing' (phenomena; all things), truth/law/reality (4NT, DO, 3Cs) and mind objects (of the 6th sense base).

Bhikkhu Buddhadasa taught:

The Dhamma of life has four meanings:

1. nature itself,

2. the law of nature,

3. the duty that must be performed according to that law of nature,

4. the fruits or benefits that arise from the performance of that duty.

Always keep these four interrelated meanings in mind.

Bhikkhu Buddhadasa by retaining the Pali in the translation, i.e., dhamma, Bhikkhu Buddhadasa has kept this last stage of the meditation broad. keep in mind, the ultimate practice in the last satipatthana is experiencing all phenomena according to truth so Nibbana results:

FOURTH TETRAD

(13) He trains himself; constantly contemplating impermanence I shall breathe in. He trains himself; constantly contemplating impermanence I shall breathe out.

(14) He trains himself; constantly contemplating fading away I shall breathe in. He trains himself: constantly contemplating fading away I shall breathe out.

(15) He trains himself: constantly contemplating quenching I shall breathe in. He trains himself: constantly contemplating quenching I shall breathe out.

(16) He trains himself: constantly contemplating tossing back I shall breathe in. He trains himself: constantly contemplating tossing back I shall breathe out.

Bhikkhus, this is how Anapanasati that one has developed and made much of perfects the four foundations of mindfulness.

***

Commentary: This tetrad studies and examines Dhamma or Truth, in particular. Now, in the fourth tetrad, once this well-trained mind has been brought under control, we use it to study Dhamma, the Truth of Nature. Now, observe that in the realization of impermanence there is the realization of many other things simultaneously. When impermanence is truly seen, this characteristic of impermanence is also the characteristic of dukkham, namely, it is ugly and unbearable. We will see the characteristic of not-self in it, also. Because these things are always changing, impermanent, unsatisfactory and beyond our control, we realize anatta, also. Then we will see that they are void of selfhood, which is sunnata. We will see that they are just thus like that. Impermanence is just thus, just like that, thusness. And so, tathata is seen as well. Please understand that the realizations of these truths are interrelated. From seeing impermanence, we see unsatisfactoriness, see anatta, see sunnata; see tathata, and see idappaccayata (conditionality, the law of cause and effect), also. Each continues into the next. A complete realization of impermanence must include unsatisfactoriness, not-self, voidness, thusness and the law of conditionality. When all of these are seen, then impermanence is seen completely in the most profound way. This is how we realize fully the impermanence of the sankhara.

Bhikkhu Buddhadasa

[sniskelsowwef]

(16) He trains himself: constantly contemplating tossing back I shall breathe in. He trains himself: constantly contemplating tossing back I shall breathe out.
What does "tossing back" mean ?

[trorseIrripsy]

What does "tossing back" mean ?

relinquishment. Bhikkhu Bodhi & Thanissaro use 'relinquishment', which transmits clearly, for me

Bhikkhu Buddhadasa uses the term 'tossing back' because, instead of relinquishing something we own, he highlights giving back something we never owned



re·lin·quish

1. To retire from; give up or abandon.
2. To put aside or desist from (something practiced, professed, or intended).
3. To let go; surrender.
4. To cease holding physically; release: THROWING IT ALL BACK

Here we come to the last step, the fourth step of the fourth tetrad, the sixteenth step of Anapanasati. It is called patinissagganupassi (contemplating throwing back). Patinissagga is a funny word. It means to throw back or to give back. When we get to this step we contemplate our throwing back, our returning, of everything to which we once attached. This is step sixteen.

There is a simple metaphor for explaining this step. Throughout our lives we have been thieves. We have been stealing things that exist naturally - in and belonging to nature - namely, the sankhara. We have plundered them and taken them to be our selves and our possessions. We are nothing but thieves. For this we are being punished by dukkha. We suffer dukkha due to all our thieving and attaching. As soon as we observe the way things really are through the succession of steps in this tetrad, we let go. We cease being thieves. We return everything to their original owner: nature. They belong to nature. Don't claim them to be "I" or "my" ever again! Our goal here is made clear by this metaphor.

Bhikkhu Buddhadasa

[Dodoerabe]

Thanks

[Dwemadayday]

Bhikkhu Thanissaro uses "remains focused". the other bhikkhu use the English term "contemplating"

does anyone have any comment about these terms?

[gabbaman]

Bhikkhu Thanissaro uses "remains focused". the other bhikkhu use the English term "contemplating"

does anyone have any comment about these terms?

I feel that contemplating is near to the experience of a peaceful mind. To be at ease with things. For example, to be focused, in my experience, happens when all effort is put in a single aspect of a wider phenomenon. To contemplate includes the wholeness of an event.

There are two approaches when reading a Sutta. One is to be focused, as when happens with intellectual study. The other is to be within the Sutta, like feeling it in its broader meaning.

Personally, is like when listening to music. One can be focused in some aspect of it. It is tyring. But when you listen to the wholeness of the oeuvre is like a letting go... instead of the tension of being focused is a kind of being within the music, as becoming part of it.

When a sutta is under contemplation the distance between one and the sutta is lost and the understanding is not intellectual but done by heart.

There is a Sutta where Buddha tells his disciples to be Samanas or those who dedicate life to contemplation. That was the final word that made me a disciple of Gotama Buddha.

[LasTins]

beautifully spoken & shared

[Audi_z]

I feel that contemplating is near to the experience of a peaceful mind. To be at ease with things. For example, to be focused, in my experience, happens when all effort is put in a single aspect of a wider phenomenon. To contemplate includes the wholeness of an event.

thanks Esho

whilst i personally incline with your sentiment, i would like to take the inquiry further towards a more passive nuance

for me, both 'remains focused' & 'contemplates/contemplating' are active words rather than passive words & they can tend to distort the very act that is 'mindfulness', which is the act of maintaining the mind in a certain way so natural (automatic) 'seeing' occurs

for me, mindfulness (maintaining; remembering) is the active function and consciousness of the object is the passive function

all of the translations tend to impart the active (volitional) function upon the natural (non-volitional) consciousness that sees & experiences. thus they can distort the meaning of mindfulness from 'maintaining the mind' in a certain way to being 'aware of the object'

thus most regard mindfulness as awareness of the object (rather than maintaining the mind in a state that nurtures awareness of the object)

in the Pali, the word is 'passi', which is the same as in 'passa' (sense contact) or 'vipassana' (clear seeing). thus, for me, i am not sure what translation is best, but something like 'sees', 'experiences', 'is cognisant of', etc.

thus: he/she dwells cognisant of bodies within bodies...and is mindful so to put away covetousness & distress....

passi J ii.103, 111; iii.278, 341. -- 2. to recognise, realise, know:


One is mindful to abandon wrong view & to enter & remain in right view: This is one's right mindfulness.

One is mindful to abandon wrong resolve & to enter & remain in right resolve: This is one's right mindfulness.

One is mindful to abandon wrong speech & to enter & remain in right speech: This is one's right mindfulness.

One is mindful to abandon wrong action & to enter & remain in right action: This is one's right mindfulness.

One is mindful to abandon wrong livelihood & to enter & remain in right livelihood: This is one's right mindfulness.

MN 117

[irrehoobe]

Thanks Element,

'mindfulness', which is the act of maintaining the mind in a certain way so natural (automatic) 'seeing' occurs

for me, mindfulness (maintaining; remembering) is the active function and consciousness of the object is the passive function

Yes... I agree.

mindfulness [from] 'maintaining the mind' in a certain way to being 'aware of the object' Yes.

thus most regard mindfulness as awareness of the object (rather than maintaining the mind in a state that nurtures awareness of the object) Yes.

thus, for me, i am not sure what translation is best, but something like 'sees', 'experiences', 'is cognisant of', etc. 'sees' makes sense.

'sees' or 'cognisant' understood in this way can be the case for 'Right View', Element?

[...]and is mindful so to put away covetousness & distress.... That's it.

So, reflecting from your words, the state of being mindful can be brought to every aspect of our day to day life. Meanwhile contemplation/focused are singular moments that hardly can be brought to daily life.

Also, from all this, it seems to me that contemplation is a kind of absorption while mindfulness is about being truly present.

[strmini]

dear Dhamma friends, fellow Truth Seekers

having just discovered this interesting sutta (SN 47.42), my attention (manasikāra) has returned to this thread:

Catunnaṃ, bhikkhave, satipaṭṭhānānaṃ samudayañca atthaṅgamañca desessāmi. Taṃ suṇātha. Ko ca, bhikkhave, kāyassa samudayo? Āhārasamudayā kāyassa samudayo; āhāranirodhā kāyassa atthaṅgamo. Phassasamudayā vedanānaṃ samudayo; phassanirodhā vedanānaṃ atthaṅgamo. Nāmarūpasamudayā cittassa samudayo; nāmarūpanirodhā cittassa atthaṅgamo. Manasikārasamudayā dhammānaṃ samudayo; manasikāranirodhā dhammānaṃ atthaṅgamo’’ti.

Bhikkhus

I will teach & analyze for you the origination (samudayo) and subsiding (atthaṅgamo) of the four establishings of mindfulness. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak.

And what, monks, is the origination of the body? From the origination of nutriment [food] is the origination of the body. From the cessation of nutriment is the subsiding of the body.

From the origination of contact is the origination of feeling. From the cessation of contact is the subsiding of feeling.

From the origination of nama-&-rupa is the origination of the mind. From the cessation of nama-&-rupa is the cessation of the mind.

From the origination of attention (manasikāra) is the origination of dhamma. From the cessation of attention is the subsiding of dhamma.

SN 47.42 whilst possibly not related, in respect to the origination & subsiding of dhamma, the use of the Pali term atthaṅgamo (subsides) brings to mind the following Dhammapada verse:

Wisdom springs from meditation; without meditation wisdom wanes. Having known these two paths of progress and decline, let a man so conduct himself that his wisdom may increase.

Maggavagga 282 my reasoned reflection (yonisomanasikāra) is: if the word dhamma here refers to phenomena, then is there the need to specifically use the word 'attention' (manasikāra) in respect to phenomena given conscious awareness of all phenomena arises from sense contact?

about how conscious awareness of all phenomena occurs due to sense contact, Buddha taught:

What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. (SN 35.23)

Dependent on eye & forms, eye-consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact. Dependent on ear & sounds, ear-consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact. Dependent on nose & aromas, nose-consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact. Dependent on tongue & flavors, tongue-consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact. Dependent on body & tactile sensations, body-consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact. Dependent on intellect & ideas, intellect-consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact. (MN 18) further, if the term dhamma in SN 47.42 refers to sankhata dhammas then how can the asankhata dhamma (dispassion - nirodha - Nibbana) be experienced in the 4th Establishment For Mindfulness, i.e., in the last three stages of Anapanasati?

Monks, among things conditioned and unconditioned, dispassion is reckoned to be the best of them all: the crushing of all infatuation, the removal of thirst, the uprooting of attachment, the cutting off of the round, the destruction of craving, dispassion, Nibbāna.

AN 4.34 thus, is it possible the word 'attention' (manasikāra) was deliberately, judiciously, precisely & fittingly used in SN 47.42 to signify the clear subtle & deep scrutiny & discernment required to see subtle Dhamma Truth (rather than mere ordinary sense contact)?




Mindfulness and clear comprehension, too, have their nutriment; they are not without a nutriment. And what is the nutriment of mindfulness and clear comprehension? 'Wise attention' should be the answer.

AN 10.61 It's amazing, lord, it's astounding, how deep this dependent co-arising is, and how deep its appearance, and yet to me it seems as clear as clear can be.

Don't say that, Ananda. Don't say that. Deep is this dependent co-arising and deep its appearance.

DN 15 Who sees paticcasamuppada sees Dhamma, who sees Dhamma sees paticcasamuppda.

MN 1 190-1.

[Twendypreency]

Hi Element,

Let's see if I am understanding this:

First three quoted suttas - SN 47.42; SN 35.23; MN 118 - seem to me that are about how clinging into the dhammas or clinging into the "ALL" (S 35.23) can happen where manasikara is of the sort of remaining focused.

Then we have the 4th Establishment of Mindfulness which is observing the dhammas a kind of taking distance from them - as being mindful - so to observe or see or cognize the fading away of lust, suffering and defilements.

I don't know if manasikara is used for Anapanasati in the case of the 4th Establishment of Mindfulness.

Also what puzzles me is that manasikara is to be ceased so to cease dhammas as it is taught at SN 47.42.

Also too, again, mindfulness is used in AN 10.61 where 'wise attention' is its nutriment. Isn't this 'wise attention' a case of 'wise manasikara'?

Help is needed

[chppjdf]

Also what puzzles me is that manasikara is to be ceased so to cease dhammas as it is taught at SN 47.42.

hi Esho

if the mind is not paying attention, how can it discern subtle Truth (such as 4NT, DO, 3Cs, etc)?

Also too, again, mindfulness is used in AN 10.61 where 'wise attention' is its nutriment. Isn't this 'wise attention' a case of 'wise manasikara'?

keep in mind, clear comprehension is also there with mindfulness, with 'wise attention' as its nutriment

however, i just added AN 10.61 to create a play of words between clear comprehension and 'attention'. but, in reality, the 'wise attention' ('reasoned reflection') mentioned in AN 10.61 is not the same as the 'attention' in SN 47.42. 'reasoned reflection' in AN 10.61 refers to thinking about the teachings after they are heard. it means to pay attention to the teachings and then think about them and how to apply them. where as in SN 47.42, manasikara refers to paying attention to the meditation objects so Truth can be discerned (i.e., vipassana)

metta

[replicaypu]

Mmmm... I will pay wise attention to this, Element

Thanks,