[AbraroLib]

Of course there is:

Monks, these are the four developments of concentration. Which four?

There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here & now.

There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowing & seeing.

There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & clear comprehension.

There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents.

And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here & now? There is the case where a monk — quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities — enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation — internal assurance. With the fading of rapture, he remains equanimous, mindful, & alert, and senses pleasure with the body. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here & now.

Samadhi Sutta

[Cyncceply]

At least for the lower enlightened beings (eg. once-returner), in jhana, the mind is predominantly manifesting bliss thus it obviously has not reached the state of complete dispassion & pure clarity

Although insight (vipassana) obviously occurs in the jhanas (and before the jhanas), such insight is not sufficient to end the asavas (mental effluents), despite a sutta or two that may state otherwise

Thus a bifurcation occurs due to the predominance of samatha (tranquility) and the inadequecy of vipassana (insight)

Kind regards

[unsamiSlini]

Similarly, a bifurcation occurs in MN 117, which states:

Of those, right view is the forerunner. And how is right view the forerunner? In one of right view, right resolve comes into being. In one of right resolve, right speech comes into being. In one of right speech, right action... In one of right action, right livelihood... In one of right livelihood, right effort... In one of right effort, right mindfulness... In one of right mindfulness, right concentration... In one of right concentration, right knowledge... In one of right knowledge, right release comes into being. Thus the learner is endowed with eight factors and the arahant with ten. It would seem the path factors are mentioned here in terms of full development (rather than partial development).

It is obvious the stream-enterer, once-returner & non-returner have developed right knowledge but not in its fullness.

Thus, MN 117 advises only the arahant is (fully) possessed of ten factors.

Kind regards



And what is the right view that is without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path? The discernment, the faculty of discernment, the strength of discernment, analysis of qualities as a factor for Awakening, the path factor of right view of one developing the noble path whose mind is noble, whose mind is free from effluents, who is fully possessed of the noble path. This is the right view that is without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path.

MN 117

[zdlupikkkdi]

Although insight (vipassana) obviously occurs in the jhanas (and before the jhanas), such insight is not sufficient to end the asavas (mental effluents)

Why not?
I am not quite sure what you are trying to say here but if jhana-induced vipassana is not sufficient then what is?

[pokerbonuscod]

I am not quite sure what you are trying to say here but if jhana-induced vipassana is not sufficient then what is?

hi Deshy

imo, in jhana, the mind will have an emphatic experience of selflessness and will see the changing intensity of the rapture & happiness vibrations

but there is not enough arising & passing in jhana for strong vipassana resulting in dispassion because the mind, for the most part, is too "one"

in jhana, it is like time stops

this is different to say basic kayanupassana, where the mind can see time clicking away with each arising & passing of an in-breath & out-breath

one in-breath arises & ceases, forever. one moment of time is gone forever, as life is one breathe closer to death

one out-breath arises & ceases, forever. one moment of time is gone forever, as life is one breathe closer to death

in jhana, this kind of seeing (vipassana) does not occur

in jhana, the mind may develop a dispassion towards rapture & happiness by seeing clearly it is not Nibbana

but there is not enough arising & passing in jhana for strong vipassana resulting in destruction of the asava because the mind, for the most part, is too "one"

also, what insight that occurs in jhana is often defiled, immature and/or not yet to total vision of a Buddha

kind regards




There are these five aggregates where a monk should stay, keeping track of arising & passing away (thus): 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance. Such is feeling... Such is perception... Such are fabrications... Such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.' As he stays keeping track of arising & passing away with regard to these five aggregates, any conceit that 'I am' with regard to these five aggregates is abandoned. This being the case, he discerns, 'I have abandoned any conceit that "I am" with regard to these five aggregates.'

Maha-suññata Sutta And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents? There is the case where a monk remains focused on arising & falling away with reference to the five aggregates: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is feeling, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is perception, such its origination, such its passing away. Such are fabrications, such their origination, such their passing away. Such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.' This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents.

Samadhi Sutta

[XYTommy]

but there is not enough arising & passing in jhana for strong vipassana resulting in dispassion because the mind, for the most part, is too "one"

Hi element, are you saying that vipassana happens in the neighborhood of jhana since within a jhana the mind is too absorbed in ekaggata that little or no movement is possible? I think jhanic samadhi (neighborhood concentration) is essential for vipassana to happen to a required level.

[SkeniaInhilla]

Hi element, are you saying that vipassana happens in the neighborhood of jhana since within a jhana the mind is too absorbed in ekaggata that little or no movement is possible? I think jhanic samadhi (neighborhood concentration) is essential for vipassana to happen to a required level.

hi deshy

genuine vipassana can certainly occur on the level of neighborhood concentration, prior to jhana

as for genuine vipassana after jhana, the suttas report this

kind regards

[casefexas]

Vipassana, as I understand it, is direct insight, like a clear seeing into an aspect of reality which has been hitherto obscured. What one experiences via vipassana will depend upon the object & state of consciousness. There is insight to be gained at all levels, even our mundane level.

The 'object' and state of consciousness are in constant flux. Jhana brings them to a place they have never been before and enables vipassana to therefore discover new territory. Awareness in jhana can either 'bliss out' or search. The deeper the jhana, the harder it will become to locate that which needs to be transcended. Perhaps at one point we will believe that there is nothing more to find or that our non-dual equanimity renders any further searching quite impossible.

At that point jhana may just become a kind of pleasant abiding. But give it long enough (with clear awareness) and there will be some slight movement, some volitional pull or awareness shift. What is that pull, what is the nature of that shift? Are 'you' that shift or the agent behind it? Are you within that movement or witnessing it?

[Dreaming]

In the actual OP where this topic originated on Dhammawheel before being hijacked here, the question was to examine examples in suttanta that would support the claims of ‘contemporary Dhamma discourse’ with reference to samatha-jhāna and vipassanā-jhāna.

There is support to be found in the dynamic of samatha and vipassanā, as found in the Nikāyas to be brought together in a single contemplative work.

[Dreqsqse]

In the actual OP where this topic originated on Dhammawheel before being hijacked here...

oh, you mean this, here: The Vipassanā Jhānas

imo, it is a waste of time reading it and worse if the description he gives there is what you agree with

the suttas offer no evidence that the Buddha taught either vipassanā jhāna or mindfulness of breathing (or awareness of walking meditation when walking continuously back & forth)

when the technique is too rigid, the natural dissolving of the "I am" is inhibited, just as the natural tandem development of samatha and vipassana is inhibited

regards


Samatha Jhāna

There are two types of jhāna: samatha jhāna and vipassanā jhāna. Some of you may have read about the samatha jhānas and wonder why I am talking about them in the context of vipassanā. Samatha jhāna is pure concentration, fixed awareness of a single object — a mental image, for example, such as a colored disk or a light. The mind is fixed on this object without wavering or moving elsewhere. Eventually the mind develops a very peaceful, tranquil, concentrated state and becomes absorbed in the object. Different levels of absorption are described in the texts, each level having specific qualities.

Vipassanā Jhāna

On the other hand, vipassanā jhāna allows the mind to move freely from object to object, staying focused on the characteristics of impermanence, suffering and absence of self that are common to all objects. Vipassanā jhāna also includes the mind which can be focused and fixed upon the bliss of nibbāna. Rather than the tranquility and absorption which are the goal of samatha jhāna practitioners, the most important results of vipassanā jhāna are insight and wisdom.

Vipassanā jhāna is the focusing of the mind on paramattha dhammas. Usually these are spoken of as “ultimate realities,” but actually they are just the things we can experience directly through the six sense doors without conceptualization. Most of them are saṅkhāra paramattha dhamma, or conditioned ultimate realities; mental and physical phenomena which are changing all the time. Nibbāna is also a paramattha dhamma, but of course it is not conditioned.

Breathing is a good example of a conditioned process. The sensations you feel at the abdomen are conditioned ultimate realities, saṅkhāra paramattha dhamma, caused by your intention to breath. The whole purpose of concentrating one’s attention on the abdomen is to penetrate the actual quality and nature of what is happening there. When you are aware of movement, tension, tautness, heat or cold, you have begun to develop vipassanā jhāna.

Mindfulness at the respective sense doors follows the same principle. If there is diligent effort and penetrative awareness, focusing on what is happening in any particular sense process, the mind will understand the true nature of what is happening. The sensing processes will be understood in individual characteristics as well as common ones.

According to the fourfold way of reckoning, which admits of four levels of jhāna, the first jhāna possesses five factors which we will describe below. All of them are important in vipassanā practice.

The Five Jhānic Factors

The first of them is called vitakka. It is the factor of aiming, accurately directing the mind toward an object. It also has the aspect of establishing the mind on the object, so that the mind stays there.

The second factor is vicāra (pronounced “vichara”), generally translated as “investigation” or “reflection.” After vitakka has brought the mind to the object and placed it firmly there, vicāra continues to rub the mind onto the object. You can experience this yourself when observing rising and falling. First you make the effort to be precise in aiming the mind at the rising process. Then your mind reaches the object and it does not slip off. It impinges on the object, rubs against it.

As you are mindful in an intuitive and accurate way from moment to moment, the mind gets more and more pure. The hindrances of desire, aversion, sloth, restlessness and doubt, weaken and disappear. The mind becomes crystal clear and calm. This state of clarity results from the presence of the two jhānic factors we just discussed. It is called viveka, which means seclusion. The consciousness is secluded, far away from the hindrances. This viveka is not a jhānic factor. It is merely a descriptive term for this secluded state of consciousness.

The third jhānic factor is pīti, rapture, a delighted interest in what is occurring. This factor may manifest physically as gooseflesh, as feelings of being dropped suddenly as if in an elevator, or as feelings of rising off the ground .The fourth jhānic factor, sukha, happiness or comfort, comes on the heels of the third. One feels very satisfied with the practice. Because both the third and the fourth jhānic factors come about as a result of seclusion from the hindrances, they are called vivekaja pīti sukha, meaning the rapture, joy and happiness born out of seclusion.

Think of this sequence as a causal chain. Seclusion of mind comes about because of the presence of the first two jhānic factors. If the mind is accurately aimed at the object, if it hits it and rubs it, after some time the mind will become secluded. Because the mind is secluded from the hindrances, one becomes happy, joyous and comfortable.

When these first four jhānic factors are present, the mind automatically becomes calm and peaceful, able to concentrate on what is happening without getting scattered or dispersed. This one-pointedness of mind is the fifth jhānic factor, samādhi, or concentration.

[mincbiori]

In the actual OP where this topic originated on Dhammawheel...

thanks for the link

i found it amazing (but not surprising given anything is possible) that there could actually be agreement with these views (unless one has never read the suttas):

Here is a discussion of the vipassana jhanas by Ven U Pandita.

The desrciption he gives there is what I agree with.

in the suttas, jhana refers to stages of one-pointedness

Unflagging persistence was aroused in me and unmuddled mindfulness established. My body was calm & unaroused, my mind concentrated & single (samāhitaṃ cittaṃ ekaggaṃ). Quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities, I entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by applied & sustained thought. With the stilling of applied & sustained thought, I entered & remained in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from applied & sustained thought — internal assurance. With the fading of rapture I remained in equanimity, mindful & alert, and physically sensitive of pleasure. I entered & remained in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — I entered & remained in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain.

MN 19 whereas the tracking of the breathing within the body U Pandita describes & the discernment of its rise & fall occurs prior to jhana

U Pandita's discussion of the five jhana factors can only be described as absurd

in real jhana, the jhana factors, most noteably pīti (rapture) and sukha (happiness), replace the in & breathing as the salient objects of meditation. pīti (rapture) and sukha (happiness) are observed in the mind and not in or part of the physical body

the Commentaries explain, correctly, the three levels of concentration, namely, momentary, neighbourhood and attainment (jhana) concentration

even on the level of neighbourhood concentration, pīti (rapture) and sukha (happiness) are not related to the physical body (such as goosebumps, etc)

the practise described by U Pandita is on the beginning levels of neighbourhood concentration, not yet reaching the 2nd Satipatthana on that level of concentration. it is very far from any kind of jhana

in short, the views of U Pandita and those that agree with the desrciption he gives are embarrassing to read

how will the faithful ever aspire to complete the whole path when teachers & internet global moderators water down the path?

with teachings like this, it is not surprising there are folks, like Dharma Dan, declaring: "I am an arahant"

regards

[GalasaKoll]

Sujato on "mass marketed" meditation techniques

[slowlexrese]

Sujato on "certified stream enterers"

[Theariwinna]

Very interesting videos, thanks for posting them Element.