[TeLMgNva]

Does anyone have info on discussions on concentration in the Nikayas?




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[pkopwqzsdcvbn]

Hi Michael,

Until other members with more knowledge will give some insight, by the moment this can be of some help:

samadhi general index

Right Concentration

Concentration and Mindfulness

[Uciaucrx]

Does anyone have info on discussions on concentration in the Nikayas?

welcome Michael

imo, it is important to distinguish between Right Concentration (Samma Samadhi) and wrong concentration

Right Concentration is supported by seven factors of the Noble Eightfold Path

this Right Concentration has its foundation is letting go of attachment & craving per the instruction in the Noble Truths

for example, Bhikkhu Buddhadasa was a scholar monk that made such a distinction

with metta

Element

The Blessed One said: "Now what, monks, is noble right concentration with its supports & requisite conditions? Any singleness of mind equipped with these seven factors — right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort & right mindfulness — is called noble right concentration with its supports & requisite conditions.

Maha-cattarisaka Sutta: The Great Forty
And what is the faculty of concentration? There is the case where a monk, a disciple of the noble ones, making it his object to let go (vossaga), attains concentration, attains singleness of mind.

SN 48.9 & 10
And this, monks, is the noble truth of the cessation of stress: the remainderless fading & cessation, renunciation, relinquishment, release & letting go (vossaga) of that very craving.

Setting the Wheel of Dhamma in Motion
As for samadhi, an empty mind is the supreme samadhi, the supremely focused firmness of mind. The straining and striving sort of samadhi isn't the real thing and the samadhi which aims at anything other than non-clinging to the five khandas is micchasamadhi (wrong or perverted samadhi). You should be aware that there is both micchasamadhi and sammasamadhi (right or correct samadhi). Only the mind that is empty of grasping at and clinging to 'I' and 'mine' can have the true and perfect stability of sammasamadhi. One who has an empty mind has correct samadhi.

Heart-wood from the Bo Tree: Ajaan Buddhadasa

[EzekelEnzino]

Kaarine ,

Thx much for your references.

Hope others will also have some thoughts on it. what Im looking for is discussion of concentration that do not include discussion of jhana.

[ssyyyrruho]

Element,

Thank you very much for your letter and refs. Very helpful. As I said to Kaarine, Im looking for references on concentration that do not include discussions about jhana. Another way of putting it would be, references to concentration that lead us on the path, but are not inclusive of jhana. It seems that most refs to concentration are related to discussion of jhana. But there must also be significant refs to concentration /sammasamadhi/ that do not depend on attaining jhana. so for example, wherein mahasi method advocates ACCESS CONCENTRATION, there is mention of it in some comentary or abhidhamma, thus there must be discussion of something like access concentration in the suttas, from which the comentary or abhidhamma took its lead.

[corsar-caribean]

...thus there must be discussion of something like access concentration in the suttas...

thank you, Michael

in my experience, there is no specific mention of access (neighbourhood) concentration in the Pali suttas. however, right concentration must begin from somewhere "right" and wrong concentration could not result in right concentration

thus i offered the quotes from MN 117 and SN 48.9 & 10, which refer to the obvious & requisite practise of right concentration prior to jhana

an interesting essay related to this topic is by Bhikkhu Bodhi about stream-entry & jhana (here), where Bhikkhu Bodhi clearly demonstrates how jhana is never mentioned in the suttas as an attribute of the stream-enterer

for the stream-enterer to make a clear vipassana breakthrough, some amount of samma samadhi is certainly necessary because the stream-enterer has entered the Noble Eightfold Path

kind regards

Element

[AndrewBoss]

there must be discussion of something like access concentration in the suttas, from which the comentary or abhidhamma took its lead.

also, an interesting comparative study is that of the Anapanasati Sutta with the jhana scriptures

the Anapanasati Sutta, in its 9th stage, includes cittanupassana (contemplation of mental states & defilements) which arise between the rapture/happiness of the 5th-8th stages and the liberation of mind at the 12th stage (prior to exclusive vipassana of the 13th-16th stages)

however, the jhana scriptures do not mention any cittanupassana between the rapture & happiness of the 1st, 2nd & 3rd jhanas and the pure clarity of the 4th jhana (contrary to the Satipatthana & Anapanasati Suttas)

it is though the Satipatthana & Anapanasati Suttas have four satipatthana or tetrads where as the jhana literature only has three satipatthana, namely, contemplation of body, contemplation of feelings then straight to vipassana after the purity of mind of the 4th jhana

even if the 4th jhana, and its purity of mind, may be regarded as cittanupassana, the jhana suttas do not mention experiencing residual defilements of the citta, as the Satipatthana & Anapanasati Sutta do:

And how does a monk remain focused on the mind in & of itself? There is the case where a monk, when the mind has passion, discerns that the mind has passion. When the mind is without passion, he discerns that the mind is without passion. When the mind has aversion, he discerns that the mind has aversion. When the mind is without aversion, he discerns that the mind is without aversion. When the mind has delusion, he discerns that the mind has delusion. When the mind is without delusion, he discerns that the mind is without delusion.

NM 10 [9] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to the mind.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to the mind.'

MN 117 thus, it may be speculated the Anapanasati Sutta describes a path on access concentration

it is possible the commentary or abhidhamma took its lead from the actual experience of practitioners

for example, many teachers, such as Ajahn Buddhadasa, who mostly disregarded commentry & abhidhamma, did not deny & taught the reality of access concentration

the one teacher i have heard that seems to deny the reality of access concentration (based on the suttas) is Ajahn Brahm (7:15 in the video)

but in my understanding, Ajahn Brahm is, without any doubt, incorrect



however, re-listening, Ajahn Brahm may not be "denying" access concentration but merely & correctly saying it does not "fulfill" (the highest) samma samadhi

Ajahn Brahm may be teaching from personal experience. his mind may have had such a degree of purity prior to his practise that he attained the path of attainment concentration (jhana) immediately from kayanupassana (contemplation of breath/body)

where as, for other practitioners, their path may proceed on the level of access concentration, which, after completion, must be begun again for the path of attainment concentration

imo, stream-entry can occur at any time for a mind that perceives the path & can let go into quietude

however, a mind with more coarse conditioning (past karma) will proceed its transcendant path of samatha/vipassana on the level of access concentration where as very karmically pure stream-enterers (such as Sariputta or Ajahn Brahm) will proceed their transendant path of samatha/vipassana on the level of attainment concentration and go directly to jhana

thus, there is certainly a transcendent path of samatha/vipassana with access concentration however some practitioners, such as Ajahn Brahm, may have never experienced it, thus they may deny or de-emphasise it

(this is contrary to the more common experience where a practitioner experiences momentary rapture or access rapture and believe it is jhana)

my opinion

regards

[citicroego]

Thanks for sharing your " opinion " Element - your ability to express your valuable insight has given much to think on as did Ajahn Brahm's talk and this is always a good thing . I agree that what seems to be at odds may be due to a de- emphasis or emphasis on a different aspect. It was from my reading here, srivijaya posting about jhanas, that I first looked at what the Buddha is recorded as saying throughout the Pali canon suttas and from what I understand and from my own experience thus far there is no doubt that in order to be able to reach the deep meditative states which allow for development of understanding we need the right conditions.

[Rurcextedutty]

an interesting essay related to this topic is by Bhikkhu Bodhi about stream-entry & jhana (here), where Bhikkhu Bodhi clearly demonstrates how jhana is never mentioned in the suttas as an attribute of the stream-enterer

for the stream-enterer to make a clear vipassana breakthrough, some amount of samma samadhi is certainly necessary because the stream-enterer has entered the Noble Eightfold Path

hi Andy

i think the point above most definitively demonstrates the reality of access concentration

it is clear the suttas state a stream-enterer is both an enlightened being and generally a non-attainer of jhana

the stream-enterer has developed the Noble Eightfold Path although not yet reaching jhana

thus there is a level of concentration which nurtures clarity of insight (vipassana) but has not yet fully eradicated the underlying tendencies to defilement

no need to dream about jhana. whatever level of samatha/vipassana can be developed is fulfilling & worthy

kind regards

[Baromaro]

Hi Element, mmm ... yes, this seems consistent to me. I still can not access the link to the essay you gave us, from Bhikkhu Bodhi ... I would very much like to read it and will try and source it, when time permits.

[ladleliDypenue]

I still can not access the link to the essay you gave us, from Bhikkhu Bodhi ..

The link works ok for me Andi - here it is again

http://www.buddhanet.net/budsas/ebud/ebdha267.htm

[RonPeeredob]

Thanks Aloka - D .... I think the problem was that my internet explorer needs updating, and somehow I have the link working now.

This section from the essay highlights for me how in order to gain the intended meaning ( in this instance regarding the role of developing our concentration through meditation practce ) we need to consider the whole picture not just a literal reading. As Venerable Bhikkhu Bodhi explains, and as Element has assisted me to understand what is needed is:

" greater sensitivity to context, sensitivity guided by acquaintance with a wide assortment of relevant texts.
Further, if we do opt for the literalist approach, then, since the passage simply inserts the formula for the four jhānas without qualification into the definition of the concentration faculty, we would have to conclude that all noble disciples, monks and lay followers alike, possess all four jhānas, not just one.
Even more, they would have to possess the four jhānas already as faith-followers and Dhamma-followers, at the very entry to the path.
This, however, seems too generous, and indicates that we need to be cautious in interpreting such formulaic definitions.
In the case presently being considered, I would regard the use of the jhāna formula here as a way of showing the most eminent type of concentration to be developed by the noble disciple.
I would not take it as a rigid pronouncement that all noble disciples actually possess all four jhānas, or even one of them. "

My own position is that I would not presume to know - however, I have made significant progress from developing regular meditation ( daily ) and benefit greatly from silent/ solitary retreats.

[SodeSceriobia]

I found a section "Concentration and Discernment" in Bhikkku Thanissaro's 'Wings to Awakening"

http://www.buddhanet.net/wingsaf.htm


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[IrrettelatWet]

The role of ‘concentration’ in Dhamma practice fits into a greater dynamic of contemplative effort which supports knowledge-development, wisdom and release. This dynamic bears the idiom ‘calm and insight’ (samatha-vipassanā). Although this idiom is rarely used in the Nikāyas, there are other groupings in the early texts which support it, such as the three classifications of the 8-fold path (tayo khandhā saṅgahitā – MN.44); here we find the contemplative supports of right-effort (sammāvāyāma), right-concentration (sammāsamādhi) and right-mindfulness (sammāsati) ‘grouped as the concentration aggregate’ (samādhikkhandhe saṅgahitā); right-view (sammādiṭṭhi) and right-intention (sammāsaṅkappo) ‘grouped as the wisdom aggregate’ (paññākkhandhe saṅgahitā). And just as we have in the 'three trainings' (tisso sikkhā - DN.3.10, AN.3.2.4.9. & 10) ‘higher training of the mind’ (adhicittasikkhā) (through jhāna), and ‘higher training of wisdom’ (adhipaññāsikkhā).

Although the Buddha gave little description of ‘calm and insight’ compared to so much emphasis given jhāna, I think we find the hallmark of it where Ānāpānasati and Satipaṭṭhāna meet in the Ānāpānasati Sutta. I also think that it is in Ānāpānasati/Satipaṭṭhāna where ‘access concentration’ finds implicit support from the Nikāyas to otherwise dubious origins in the Visuddhimagga; as the requisite calm unification of body and mind which supports contemplative examination of states, knowledge development and the pathway to wisdom and release.

As indicated earlier in the thread, I think this dynamic of ‘calm and insight’ has been missed to some extent by the extremes of jhāna and vipassanā traditions. And this is an interesting disconnect for me to find in Theravāda of all places, for what Zen has retained as shinkantaza is essentially the same.

[luffyplayaz]

...‘calm and insight’ (samatha-vipassanā)...

yes, this term is certainly rare but it is there in places

imo, i see both samatha (calm) & vipassana (insight) as fruits of samadhi (singleness of mind) rather than samatha & samadhi as synonyms

kind regards

And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here & now? There is the case where a monk — quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities — enters & remains in the first jhana...etc...

And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents? There is the case where a monk remains focused on arising & falling away with reference to the five clung-to-aggregates: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is feeling, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is perception, such its origination, such its passing away. Such are fabrications, such their origination, such their passing away. Such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'

AN 4.41 Tassime dve dhammā yuganandhā vattanti – samatho ca vipassanā ca

[And] for him these two qualities occur in tandem: tranquillity & insight.

MN 149

[HRS1H7gO]

the one teacher i have heard that seems to deny the reality of access concentration (based on the suttas) is Ajahn Brahm (7:15 in the video)

at 7:30, AB certainly seems to dismiss neighbourhood concentration has having any basis in the suttas but i have speculated that the differences between the Anapanasati Sutta teaching and the jhana teachings may point to the Anapanasati Sutta being a teaching on the level of neighbourhood concentration

just now, the idea arose: "in the Anapanasati Sutta, it is described that each step is practised with awareness of breathing in & breathing out yet AB strongly insists that awareness of breathing ends in jhana" (which i do not disagree with, at least for the initial jhanas)

thus, AB's insistence may not be supported by the Anapanasati Sutta

regards