[AlexanderDrew]

Hi Element,

But then, maybe, this is not a problem, especially if we understand the term 'cessation' (nirodha) as 'quenching' or the 'extinguishing' of craving.

Yes.

When craving arises, originates or generates, there must also be the arising, origination or generation of nutriment.

But when craving ceases, what ceases is craving 'mixed' with nutriment, just as the cessation (nirodha) of consciousness means the cessation of craving mixed with consciousness
...or, even, being there the nutriment, the awareness of craving toward it, being mindful about what the "nutriment" is nourishing, how nutriment nourishes craving helps to the ceasing

Just as consciousness can be purified, possibly nutriment can also become pure or be purified Or at least it loses its craving nourishing property.

Thus, when the word 'nirodha' is understood as 'quenching' or 'extinguishing' craving (i.e., the fires of greed, hatred & delusion), nutriment may become are more neutral term

SN 22.48 states there are two kinds of five aggregates, namely, five aggregates with clinging and five aggregates without clinging

so, possibly, nutriment is the same, that is, there is nutriment with craving and nutriment without craving

Yes, agree.

At post # 2, the quote from the Putamansa Sutta, speaks about nutriments that nourishes beings seeking birth. So if one is to seek birth, one is to need more. When one is in the need of more, craves. So nurtiments are because they nourish craving because the unaware mind. In some way, one goes to the nourishment source to seek the nutriment that feeds craving. Here, the issue, IMO, is craving, again.

[dgdhgjjgj]

Question 1: What is meant by the sentence "for the sustenance of beings born and for the support of beings seeking birth"?

Hi Element,
Potentially contentious question and folks will argue the finer points of translation here. In terms of my own "opinion" for what it's worth I am more towards the Tibetan teachings on Bardo without positing any eternal whatsit. It's a mere process, driven by craving, so I don't see any contradiction.

Nutriment #1: Edible food, coarse and fine
The discourse on the first nutriment may offer some insight into this sutta, given the message of the simile is quite clear and straightforward

I agree, it speaks for itself. The simile of the parents eating their kid has, for me, an additional meaning. I think that within it their sorrowful plight is a recognition of the profound scale of interrelated suffering. All consumption is a kind of destructive act but our very mode of being is part-and-parcel of this. We consume and are, in turn, consumed.

Nutriment #2: Sense Impression:
Never stops, unless we are in deep sleep. It is the opposite of deep peace. Sense impressions assailing us like flies. Seems a very clear picture.

Nutriment #3: Volition
Depicted as the agent that drives us to suffering again and again. I don't personally 'see' that for myself, but then again, I'm not Buddha. Could there not be volition within an enlightened mind? One that would not permit suffering - perhaps that could be a beneficial thing? It's exclusively depicted as bad but is it (from its own side) necessarily so... ...now it looks like I'm an apostate.

Nutriment #4: Consciousness
Even more problematic. I'm no expert on the Pali but the overriding impression I come away with, is that all consciousness depends upon a base and that it is, in itself, only part of a mechanistic process, like ear-consiousness aware of sound etc. It seems to be an extension of #2: Sense Impression, yet they must be distinct enough to merit their own category, although I fail to see why.

Mind consciousness, as discursive thought - now I can see how that is a nutriment - creating and upholding our self-image. How by its release, freedom from that aspect of binding is attained.

When craving arises, originates or generates, there must also be the arising, origination or generation of nutriment.

This is quite profound and it seems to come down to how much slack we want to give dependent origination. In the dream state our mind creates a subject-object duality - like a bubble in the void - an experient and scenery, peopled for action. Could we be audacious enough to claim the samsaric process we are in is similar. Getting a bit naughtily Yogacaran there perhaps?

But when craving ceases, what ceases is craving 'mixed' with nutriment, just as the cessation (nirodha) of consciousness means the cesssation of craving mixed with consciousness So it would appear.

Just as consciousness can be purified, possibly nutriment can also become pure or be purified Like I said about volition. The suttas don't give any indication that this is so (at least I've never whiffed the slightest) It's all completely cut off like a palm stump etc.

Kashmiri Shaivites criticise Buddhists on this very point and they make a plausible case, if I may say so, but that's a whole new topic.

[toksenveste]

Element,

Maybe the Atthiraga Sutta: "The Nature of the Arhat's Consiousness" (SN12.64) can be of some help.

In the commentaries for the sutta, it is highlighted one give by Bhikkhu Bodhi:

It should be noted that [SA] explains the statement that the arahant's consciousness is unestablished to mean that his kamma is unestablished. This seems too free an interpretation. Nevertheless, I think it would be wrong to interpret the sutta as saying that after his parinibbana the arahat's consiousness persists in some mode that can only be described as unestablished. The present passage is clearly speaking of the arahant's consciousness while he is alive.Its purport is not that an 'unestablished consciousness' remains after the arhant's parinibbana, but that his consciousness, being devoid of lust, does not become established in the four nutriments in any way that might generate a future existence. (S:B775n174) What is also remarkable, are, again, the formulas given by Buddha for each nutriment, as follows:

Bhikhus, if there is lust, or delight, or craving for the nutriment that is edible food, consciousness is established there and grows.
Where consciousness is established and grows, there is the descent of name-and-form.
Where there is the descent of name-and-form, there is the growth of formations.
Where there is the growth of formations, there is further rebirth.
Where there is further rebirth, there are further birth, decay and death.
Where there are further birth, decay and death Bhikkhus, I say that it is accompanied by sorrow, by anguish, by despair. After the nutriments awareness instructions, the Buddha teaches:

Bhikhus, if there is no lust, nor delight, nor craving for the nutriment that is edible food, consciousness is not established there and grows not.
Where consciousness is not established and grows not, there is no descent of name-and-form.
Where there is no descent of name-and-form, there is no growth of formations.
Where there is no growth of consciousness, there is no further rebirth.
Where there is no further rebirth, there are no further birth, decay and death.
Where there is no further birth, decay and death, bhikkhus, I say one is without sorrow, without anguish, without despair. The sutta has two similes but the basic formulas are the above quoted. Craving and lust seems to be the issue.

[CuittisIL]

thank you for your participation and offerings Kaarine and Srivijaya

i will now offer my interpretation

first, i always sensed, just like edible food, the Four Nutriments are requisites that must be used in a manner conducive to enlightenment. they are things not be abandoned but to be used skilfully

for example, just like edible food, how could a mind gain enlightenment if it had no sense impressions and no consciousness?

how could the mind initiate the path and act in the world without intention?

so Kaarine's original quote helped me alot, when it clarified the Pali as "for the maintenance (thitiya); for the support (anuggahaya); for the purpose of helping"

[Kiliunjubl]

And how, O monks, should the nutriment sense-impression be considered?

Suppose, O monks, there is a skinned cow that stands close to a wall, then the creatures living in the wall will nibble at the cow; and if the skinned cow stands near a tree, then the creatures living in the tree will nibble at it; if it stands in the water, the creatures living in the water will nibble at it; if it stands in the open air, the creatures living in the air will nibble at it. Wherever that skinned cow stands, the creatures living there will nibble at it.

In that manner, I say, O monks, should the nutriment sense-impression be considered. If the nutriment sense-impression is comprehended, the three kinds of feeling are thereby comprehended. And if the three kinds of feeling are comprehended, there is, I say, no further work left to do for the noble disciple.

Puttamansa Sutta: A Son's Flesh so about Nutriment #2, my interpretation is just like the skinned cow, sense impression giving rise to feeling is unavoidable, including for the arahant. Thus the work to be done is to abandon craving & defilement in relation to sense impression & feeling.



"Here, ruler of gods, a bhikkhu has heard that nothing is worth clinging to. When a bhikkhu has heard that nothing is worth clinging to, he directly knows everything; having directly known everything, he fully understands everything; having directly known everything, he fully understood everything, whatever feeling he feels, whether pleasant or painful or neither pleasant or painful, he abides contemplating (observing) impermanence in those feelings, contemplating (observing) fading away, contemplating (observing) cessation, contemplating (observing) relinquishment (letting go). Contemplating (observing) thus, he does not cling to anything in the world. When he does not cling, he is not agitated, he personally attains Nibbana. He understands: ‘Birth is destroyed, the holy life has been lived, there is no more coming to any state of being.’ Briefly, it is in this way, ruler of gods, that a bhikkhu is liberated in the destruction of craving, one who has reached the ultimate end, the ultimate security from bondage, the ultimate holy life, the ultimate goal, one who is foremost among gods and humans.

MN 37 What, bhikkhus, is the Nibbana-element with residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant, one whose taints are destroyed, the holy life fulfilled, who has done what had to be done, laid down the burden, attained the goal, destroyed the fetters of being, completely released through final knowledge. However, his five sense faculties remain unimpaired, by which he still experiences what is agreeable and disagreeable and feels pleasure and pain. It is the extinction of attachment, hate, and delusion in him that is called the Nibbana-element with residue left.

Itivuttaka: The Group of Twos Sensing a feeling of pleasure, one discerns that it is fleeting, not grasped at, not relished. Sensing a feeling of pain... Sensing a feeling of neither pleasure nor pain, one discerns that it is fleeting, not grasped at, not relished. Sensing a feeling of pleasure, one senses it disjoined from it. Sensing a feeling of pain... Sensing a feeling of neither pleasure nor pain, one senses it disjoined from it. When sensing a feeling limited to the body, one discerns that 'I am sensing a feeling limited to the body.' When sensing a feeling limited to life, one discerns that 'I am sensing a feeling limited to life.' One discerns that 'With the break-up of the body, after the termination of life, all that is sensed, not being relished, will grow cold right here.'

MN 140

[Navzrrqt]

And how, O monks, should the nutriment volitional thought be considered?

Suppose, O monks, there is a pit of glowing embers, filled to cover a man's height, with embers glowing without flames and smoke. Now a man comes that way, who loves life and does not wish to die, who wishes for happiness and detests suffering. Then two strong men would seize both his arms and drag him to the pit of glowing embers. Then, O monks, far away from it would recoil that man's will, far away from it his longing, far away his inclination. And why? Because the man knows: 'If I fall into that pit of glowing embers, I shall meet death or deadly pain.'

In that manner, I say, O monks, should the nutriment volitional thought be considered. If the nutriment volitional thought is comprehended, the three kinds of craving are thereby comprehended. And if the three kinds of craving are comprehended, there is, I say, no further work left to do for the noble disciple.

Puttamansa Sutta: A Son's Flesh about Nutriment #3, my interpretation is the two strong men are good intention (karma) and bad intention (karma)

as the proverb goes: "The road to hell is paved with good intentions". both good and bad intentions can result in suffering

for example, with good intention, one starts a chatsite such as BWB and it often creates more dukkha than nirvana

so the work to be done is to practise Right Intention or the supramundane Karma That Ends Karma

[Helloheshess]

And how, O monks, should the nutriment consciousness be considered?

Suppose, O monks, people have seized a criminal, a robber, and brought him before the king saying: 'This is a criminal, a robber, O Majesty! Mete out to him the punishment you think fit!' Then the king would tell them: 'Go, and in the morning strike this man with a hundred spears!' And they strike him in the morning with a hundred spears. At noon the king would ask his men: 'How is that man?' — 'He is still alive, Your Majesty.' — 'Then go and strike him again at noontime with a hundred spears!' So they did, and in the evening the king asks them again: 'How is that man?' — 'He is still alive.' — 'Then go and in the evening strike him again with a hundred spears!' And so they did.

What do you think, O monks? Will that man, struck with three hundred spears during a day, suffer pain and torment owing to that?

Even if he were to be struck only by a single spear, he would suffer pain and torment owing to that. How much more if he is being struck by three hundred spears!"

Puttamansa Sutta: A Son's Flesh about Nutriment #4, my interpretation is "the criminal" or "robber" represents attachment & birthing (jati), that is, appropriating the natural consciousness and mind-&-body elements as "I", "me" and "mine"

each time the criminal or robber steals the natural consciousness and mind-&-body elements as "belonging to oneself", they are punished and tormented by dukkha

thus, the Buddha advised, as these mental and physical elements are "not-yours", don't steal them like a criminal or robber

instead, just "borrow" them and use them skilfully

OK...that's it



And what is birth? Whatever birth, taking birth, descent, coming-to-be, coming-forth, appearance [manifesting; building up] of aggregates & acquisition [appropriation] of [sense] media of the various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called birth.

SN 12.2
He assumes form (the body) to be the self, or the self as possessing form, or form as in the self, or the self as in form. He is seized with the idea that 'I am form' or 'Form is mine.' As he is seized with these ideas, his form changes & alters, and he falls into sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair over its change & alteration.

He assumes feeling to be the self, or the self as possessing feeling, or feeling as in the self, or the self as in feeling. He is seized with the idea that 'I am feeling' or 'Feeling is mine.' As he is seized with these ideas, his feeling changes & alters, and he falls into sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair over its change & alteration.

He assumes perception to be the self, or the self as possessing perception, or perception as in the self, or the self as in perception. He is seized with the idea that 'I am perception' or 'Perception is mine.' As he is seized with these ideas, his perception changes & alters, and he falls into sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair over its change & alteration.

He assumes (mental) fabrications to be the self, or the self as possessing fabrications, or fabrications as in the self, or the self as in fabrications. He is seized with the idea that 'I am fabrications' or 'Fabrications are mine.' As he is seized with these ideas, his fabrications change & alter, and he falls into sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair over their change & alteration.

He assumes consciousness to be the self, or the self as possessing consciousness, or consciousness as in the self, or the self as in consciousness. He is seized with the idea that 'I am consciousness' or 'Consciousness is mine.' As he is seized with these ideas, his consciousness changes & alters, and he falls into sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair over its change & alteration.

Nakulapita Sutta: To Nakulapita
Suppose a person were to gather or burn or do as he likes with the grass, twigs, branches & leaves here in Jeta's Grove. Would the thought occur to you, 'It's us that this person is gathering, burning, or doing with as he likes'?"

No, lord. Why is that? Because those things are not our self nor do they pertain to our self.

In the same way, monks, the eye is not yours: let go of it. Your letting go of it will be for your long-term happiness & benefit... The ear... The nose... The tongue... The body... The intellect is not yours: let go of it. Your letting go of it will be for your long-term happiness & benefit... Whatever arises in dependence on intellect-contact, experienced either as pleasure, as pain, or as neither-pleasure-nor-pain, that too is not yours: let go of it. Your letting go of it will be for your long-term happiness & benefit.

Na Tumhaka Sutta: Not Yours What do you think, monks: if people were to carry away the grass, sticks, branches and leaves in this Jeta Grove, or burnt them or did with them what they pleased, would you think: These people carry us away, or burn us, or do with us as they please?"

"No, Lord." — "Why not?" Because, Lord, that is neither our self nor the property of our self."

So, too, monks, give up what is not yours! Your giving it up will for a long time bring you welfare and happiness. What is it that is not yours? Corporeality... feeling... perception... mental formations... consciousness are not yours. Give them up! Your giving them up will for a long time bring you welfare and happiness.

Alagaddupama Sutta: The Snake Simile

[bp9QxekG]

OK...that's it

Excellent interpretation Element. Thanks.

[enrisaabsotte]

Thanks, Element .

[mr.nemo]

Thanks Elements and others

i tried to do the experiment with nutriment #1 with the knowledge that i have on six sense bases etc.

i could see (with the mind eye) that when we start with nutriment #1 and when we are not mindful, nutriment #2, nutriment #2 and nutriment #3 happens automatically and simultaneously

for ex:
when we hear the word 'rice/bread'
ear+ sound + ear consiousness (cause) get together
and
the result (effect) is contact (passa)

the result of that is
Feeling (pleasant if we are hungry and like rice/bread or unpleasant if we hungry but do not like rice/bread, neither-pleasant-nor-unpleasant if we are not hungry)
and
Perception (rice/bread for all of us worldlings, four elements for those have Noble Right View if they are mindful, and just four elements for Arahnts)

Worldlings have two darts (one as a kamma vipaka, the other one because of ignorance)
Noble deciples have two darts again (one as a kamma vipaka, and other because there is no mindfulness)
Arahants have only one dart (as a kamma vipaka until the last breath of this life)

This testing can be done for all six sense bases and we all can see 'how far the above is true'

without trying do not come to a conclusion please

[Angelinaaiiiiiiiii]

hi Dhamma Friends,

have you ever thought that our own bodies are nutriment (kabalinkahara) food for others like crocodiles, tigers, sharks?

we are greedy for kabalinkahara and that is why we will be born again and again?

[Forex Trading Software]

We're not greedy for nutriment; we're greedy to avoid dying---we crave continued existence. Nutriment prevents death. It may also be the subject of other cravings (gluttony), but we need to eat to be able to practice. That our bodies are also nutriment for others is emblematic of this place called samsara; beings are programmed to kill other beings to survive, especially the ones you've mentioned. In most cases their bodies are literally configured to exist on a diet of sentient beings.

[masteryxisman]

.....emblematic of this place called samsara

Hi tjampel,

Its my understanding that samsara is not usually interpreted as ''a place'' in Theravada .

Example.....


"Samsara literally means "wandering-on." Many people think of it as the Buddhist name for the place where we currently live — the place we leave when we go to nibbana. But in the early Buddhist texts, it's the answer, not to the question, "Where are we?" but to the question, "What are we doing?" Instead of a place, it's a process: the tendency to keep creating worlds and then moving into them. As one world falls apart, you create another one and go there. At the same time, you bump into other people who are creating their own worlds, too".

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/a...o/samsara.html

However, if further discussion on this subject is required, it should take place in a different topic to this one.

thanks.


.

[Mypepraipse]

we are greedy for kabalinkahara and that is why we will be born again and again?

Hi upekka,
There's a bit more to it than that.

[leareliovag]

Hi upekka,
There's a bit more to it than that.

very true

however, for those who are not None-Returners, kabalinkahara is the main thing to come back again and again

what do you say?

[jPNy2BP5]

very true

however, for those who are not None-Returners, kabalinkahara is the main thing to come back again and again

what do you say?

As far as I know kabalinkahara refers only to physical nutriment. I have never heard that this alone perpetuates the process. Do you have any source for this?

[UncoonsKala]

i) How the edible food should be understood?

The following part is from Puttamamsa Sutta (Son's Flesh) in Samyutta Nikaya

Monks, how should hard and soft eatable food be known?

Monks, a couple had come to a desert path with little provisions and they have a single dearly loved son.

Monks, the little provisions that this couple had brought, dwindled and finished. They had the desert path yet to cross.

Monks, it occurred to this couple, the little provisions that we have brought, has dwindled and finished, there is the desert path yet to cross. What if we killed our dearly loved, only son prepared dried flesh and peppered meat and while eating the flesh of the son crossed the dessert, so that all three of us would not die.

Monks, then the couple killed their dearly loved, only son prepared dried flesh and peppered meat and while eating the flesh of the son crossed the dessert. While eating the flesh of the son, they beat their breast and lamented. `Where is our dearly loved only son?'

Monks, did they eat that food for pleasure, for intoxication, for adornment or for the sake of beauty?

Venerable sir, it's for none of these.

Isn't it to cross the dessert, that they ate that food?

Yes, it is, venerable sir.


Monks, I say, hard and soft eatables should be known in this manner.
Monks, when hard and soft eatables are thoroughly known, the greed for the five strands of sense desires are thoroughly known When greed, for the five strands of sense desires are thoroughly known, the noble disciple has no bonds to return to this world again.

[genna]

Monks, when hard and soft eatables are thoroughly known, the greed for the five strands of sense desires are thoroughly known When greed, for the five strands of sense desires are thoroughly known, the noble disciple has no bonds to return to this world again.

Hi upekka,
Perhaps when the greed which underpins desire is known, then this applies. Anorexics reject food but don't get liberated. Even Buddha didn't when he tried to starve himself.

Consuming food of itself is not the sustaining cause of wandering in samsara.

[thighikergove]

Consuming food of itself is not the sustaining cause of wandering in samsara.

just contemplate on following:

kabalinkahara leads to passa-ahara
passa-ahara leads to manosa-sancetanahara through feeling and perception
when one clings to feeling and perception with my and mine, it leads to sankhara
sankhara leads to vinnana-ahara

this goes round and round without ending

just contemplate and try to see

[didrexx]

just contemplate on following:

kabalinkahara leads to passa-ahara
passa-ahara leads to manosa-sancetanahara through feeling and perception
when one clings to feeling and perception with my and mine, it leads to sankhara
sankhara leads to vinnana-ahara

this goes round and round without ending

just contemplate and try to see

Hi upekka,

I can see what you are saying but Buddha and the arhats still ate after their liberation in order to sustain their bodies. They ate without greed and ignorance. The act of eating, the food itself, did not drag them back into bondage.

The key thing here is desire born of ignorance. All Buddhist schools, as far as I know, posit ignorance (not food) as the prime cause of our bondage.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that point.