[dmoiknlasd]

dear forum

the Buddha's teaching of the Four Nutriments (ahara) has always intrigued me

for many years i wondered what this teaching is actually about? what is its purpose?

the Buddha was certainly not one to waste words

so i thought to start this thread inquiring into the sutta and especially the similes used

i sense by comprehending the similes the relevant understanding may arise

with metta

element

[Katoabralia]

Introduction:

Question 1: What is meant by the sentence "for the sustenance of beings born and for the support of beings seeking birth"?



There are, O monks, four nutriments for the sustenance of beings born and for the support of beings seeking birth. What are the four?

Edible food, coarse and fine; secondly, sense-impression; thirdly, volitional thought; fourthly, consciousness.

Puttamansa Sutta: A Son's Flesh

[womberte]

Nutriment #1: Edible food, coarse and fine

The discourse on the first nutriment may offer some insight into this sutta, given the message of the simile is quite clear and straightforward



How, O monks, should the nutriment edible food be considered?

Suppose a couple, husband and wife, have set out on a journey through the desert, carrying only limited provisions. They have with them their only son, dearly beloved by them. Now, while these two traveled through the desert, their limited stock of provisions ran out and came to an end, but there was still a stretch of desert not yet crossed. Then the two thought: 'Our small stock of provisions has run out, it has come to an end; and there is still a stretch of desert that is not yet crossed. Should we not kill our only son, so dearly beloved, prepare dried and roasted meat, and eating our son's flesh, we may cross in that way the remaining part of the desert, lest all three of us perish?'

And these two, husband and wife, killed their only son, so dearly beloved by them, prepared dried and roasted meat, and, eating their son's flesh, crossed in that way the remaining part of the desert. And while eating their son's flesh, they were beating their breast and crying: 'Where are you, our only and beloved son? Where are you, our only and beloved son?'

What do you think, O monks? Will they eat the food for the pleasure of it, for enjoyment, for comeliness' sake, for (the body's) embellishment?

Certainly not, O Lord.

Will they not rather eat the food merely for the sake of crossing the desert?

So it is, O Lord.

In the same manner, I say, O monks, should edible food be considered. If, O monks, the nutriment edible food is comprehended, the lust for the five sense-objects is (thereby) comprehended. And if lust for the five sense-objects is comprehended, there is no fetter enchained by which a noble disciple might come to this world again.

Puttamansa Sutta: A Son's Flesh

[casinobonusnolimit]

Nutriment #2: Sense Impression



And how, O monks, should the nutriment sense-impression be considered?

Suppose, O monks, there is a skinned cow that stands close to a wall, then the creatures living in the wall will nibble at the cow; and if the skinned cow stands near a tree, then the creatures living in the tree will nibble at it; if it stands in the water, the creatures living in the water will nibble at it; if it stands in the open air, the creatures living in the air will nibble at it. Wherever that skinned cow stands, the creatures living there will nibble at it.

In that manner, I say, O monks, should the nutriment sense-impression be considered. If the nutriment sense-impression is comprehended, the three kinds of feeling are thereby comprehended. And if the three kinds of feeling are comprehended, there is, I say, no further work left to do for the noble disciple.

Puttamansa Sutta: A Son's Flesh

[assohillA]

Nutriment #3: Volition



And how, O monks, should the nutriment volitional thought be considered?

Suppose, O monks, there is a pit of glowing embers, filled to cover a man's height, with embers glowing without flames and smoke. Now a man comes that way, who loves life and does not wish to die, who wishes for happiness and detests suffering. Then two strong men would seize both his arms and drag him to the pit of glowing embers. Then, O monks, far away from it would recoil that man's will, far away from it his longing, far away his inclination. And why? Because the man knows: 'If I fall into that pit of glowing embers, I shall meet death or deadly pain.'

In that manner, I say, O monks, should the nutriment volitional thought be considered. If the nutriment volitional thought is comprehended, the three kinds of craving are thereby comprehended. And if the three kinds of craving are comprehended, there is, I say, no further work left to do for the noble disciple.

Puttamansa Sutta: A Son's Flesh

[Ltftujkg]

Nutriment #4: Consciousness



And how, O monks, should the nutriment consciousness be considered?

Suppose, O monks, people have seized a criminal, a robber, and brought him before the king saying: 'This is a criminal, a robber, O Majesty! Mete out to him the punishment you think fit!' Then the king would tell them: 'Go, and in the morning strike this man with a hundred spears!' And they strike him in the morning with a hundred spears. At noon the king would ask his men: 'How is that man?' — 'He is still alive, Your Majesty.' — 'Then go and strike him again at noontime with a hundred spears!' So they did, and in the evening the king asks them again: 'How is that man?' — 'He is still alive.' — 'Then go and in the evening strike him again with a hundred spears!' And so they did.

What do you think, O monks? Will that man, struck with three hundred spears during a day, suffer pain and torment owing to that?

Even if he were to be struck only by a single spear, he would suffer pain and torment owing to that. How much more if he is being struck by three hundred spears!"

Puttamansa Sutta: A Son's Flesh

[heltduell]

One of the interesting things about learning foreign languages and culture is how their similes and metaphors compare to those of my native language and culture. Sometimes they're remarkably similar and sometimes no amount of explanation can make them clear. I think the necessary information that might explain those images in the sutta passages above has been lost in the intervening 2,500 years. At least, I haven't been able to find explanations for them.

When I read those passages, I just take the obvious advice about cultivating dispassion towards, food, sense impressions, volition and consciousness. These are things that we ordinarily attach to, cling to, chase after and/or be enamored of, but they all bear the 3 marks of existence, so they are ultimately unsatisfactory. That's about all I can do with it. Wish I had something more, Element.

[RLRWai4B]

I think the necessary information that might explain those images in the sutta passages above has been lost in the intervening 2,500 years. At least, I haven't been able to find explanations for them.

You have given up already! I sense there is more to the similes.

When I read those passages, I just take the obvious advice about cultivating dispassion towards, food, sense impressions, volition and consciousness. These are things that we ordinarily attach to, cling to, chase after and/or be enamored of, but they all bear the 3 marks of existence, so they are ultimately unsatisfactory.

Sure.

But if the Buddha was just exhorting non-attachment, he already taught about not attaching to the five aggregates, to the six sense bases, etc

I suppose my inquiry is why did the Buddha decide to make a special teaching out of these four things and called them 'nutriment'?

[NanoKakadze]

Hi Element,

Curiously, last week I started through "The Commentary to the Discourse on Right View" translated from Pali by Bhikkhu Nanamoli.

The Sammaditthi Sutta has a special section about the Nutriments. To me, the term "nutriment" was too, a very intriguing approach given by Buddha. I haven't gone through all the commentary because it is felt a little bit Abhidamic but when Nanamoli reaches the section of "The Four Nutriments" he comments:

The verb aharati normally means "to bring" but here it is rendered as "nourish" to underscore it's connection with ahara, nutriment.

So, in general, "nutriments" are conditions that fed the need of a sort of "come to be"; those that have not conquer the fetter of being. Also the commentaries go further when making clear "Nutriment" as maintenance (thitiya) and support (anuggahaya), as explained above.

I have not gone further with the document due the very slowly pace I need for this explorations.

Hope this can bring some help.

[11Pecepebra]

Thanks Kaarine

10. Herein, this is the elucidation of the terms that are not clear. Nutriment (ahara) is a condition (paccaya). For a condition nourishes its own fruit, therefore it is called nutriment.

The above does not really reasonate with me, i.e., ahara synonomous with paccaya. Most commonly (not always), 'paccaya' is used as a condition for suffering, such as avijjāpaccayāsaṅkhārā (ignorance conditions fabricators).

Or alternatively, "come to be" is born, reproduced; this is a term for those who have destroyed the cankers (Arahants), who are reckoned thus: "They have come to be only, but they will not come to be again."

Again, the above does not resonate with me. Arahants have destroyed "being". For me, "being" is an asava (mental formation) rather than the existence of an organism. For example, MN 121 clearly states the arahant has ended the asava of being.

For the maintenance (thitiya); for the purpose of maintaining. For the support (anuggahaya): for the purpose of supporting, for the purpose of helping.

Interesting. The translation of words here may be helpful.

cattārome āhārā bhūtānaṃ vā sattānaṃ ṭhitiyā sambhavesīnaṃ vā anuggahāya

there are these four kinds of nutriment for the maintenance of beings that have already come to be and for the assistance (help) of those about to come to be [Bhikkhu Bodhi translation]

anuggaṇha (adj.) [cp. anuggaha] compassionate, ready to help PvA 42 ˚sīla

thus, each day, monks chant about how their alms food maintains & supports their spiritual life



Paṭisaṅkhā yoniso piṇḍapātaṃ paṭisevāmi,

Considering it thoughtfully, I use alms food,

Neva davāya na madāya na maṇḍanāya na vibhūsanāya,

Not playfully, nor for intoxication, nor for putting on bulk, nor for beautification,

Yāvadeva imassa kāyassa ṭhitiyā yāpanāya vihiṃsuparatiyā brahma-cariyānuggahāya,

But simply for the survival & continuance of this body, for ending its afflictions, for the support of the holy life,

Iti purāṇañca vedanaṃ paṭihaṅkhāmi navañca vedanaṃ na uppādessāmi,

(Thinking,) Thus will I destroy old feelings (of hunger) and not create new feelings (from overeating).

Yātrā ca me bhavissati anavajjatā ca phāsu-vihāro cāti.

I will maintain myself, be blameless & live in comfort.

Pali Chanting

[avaiguite]

Interesting. The translation of words may be helpful here.

cattārome , bhikkhave, āhārā bhūtānaṃ vā sattānaṃ ṭhitiyā sambhavesīnaṃ vā anuggahāya

there are these four kinds of nutriment for the maintenance of beings that have already come to be and for the assistance (help) of those about to come to be [Bhikkhu Bodhi translation]

anuggaṇha (adj.) [cp. anuggaha] compassionate, ready to help PvA 42 ˚sīla

thus, each day, monks chant about how their alms food maintains & supports their spiritual life

However, the problem with this interpretation is the suttas also seem to align 'nutriment' with craving



And what is nutriment, what is the origin of nutriment, what is the cessation of nutriment, what is the way leading to the cessation of nutriment?

There are these four kinds of nutriment for the maintenance of beings that already have come to be and for the support of those seeking a new existence.

What four?

They are physical food as nutriment, gross or subtle; contact as the second; mental volition as the third; and consciousness as the fourth.

With the arising of craving there is the arising of nutriment.

With the cessation of craving there is the cessation of nutriment.

The way leading to the cessation of nutriment is just this Noble Eightfold Path; that is, right view, right intention, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness and right concentration.

Sammaditthi Sutta: The Discourse on Right View But then, maybe, this is not a problem, especially if we understand the term 'cessation' (nirodha) as 'quenching' or the 'extinguishing' of craving.

When craving arises, originates or generates, there must also be the arising, origination or generation of nutriment.

But when craving ceases, what ceases is craving 'mixed' with nutriment, just as the cessation (nirodha) of consciousness means the cesssation of craving mixed with consciousness

Just as consciousness can be purified, possibly nutriment can also become pure or be purified

Thus, when the word 'nirodha' is understood as 'quenching' or 'extinguishing' craving (i.e., the fires of greed, hatred & delusion), nutriment may become are more neutral term

SN 22.48 states there are two kinds of five aggregates, namely, five aggregates with clinging and five aggregates without clinging

so, possibly, nutriment is the same, that is, there is nutriment with craving and nutriment without craving



If a monk abandons passion for the property of consciousness, then owing to the abandonment of passion, the support is cut off and there is no landing of consciousness. Consciousness, thus not having landed, not increasing, not concocted, is released. Owing to its release, it is steady. Owing to its steadiness, it is contented. Owing to its contentment, it is not agitated. Not agitated, he (the monk) is totally unbound right within. He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'

Upaya Sutta Sàriputta, whoever recluse or brahmin purified alms food in the past, did so reflecting in this manner. Whoever recluse or brahmin would purify alms food in the future, will do so reflecting in this manner. Whoever recluse or brahmin purifies alms food at present, do so reflecting in this manner. Sàriputta, you should train in this manner.

Pindapataparisuddhi Sutta: Purification of Alms Food

[tofRobbroolve]

You have given up already!

It's on my "To do" list.


I sense there is more to the similes. Most likely. I suspect they're allusions to memes contemporary to the Buddha's time and location, though. I'm not sure how to go about recovering that information, though, and I don't see the value in speculating without something solid to go on. On the other hand, it could be a very important message that's been obscured. I don't want to discourage your interest in it.


Sure.

But if the Buddha was just exhorting non-attachment, he already taught about not attaching to the five aggregates, to the six sense bases, etc

I suppose my inquiry is why did the Buddha decide to make a special teaching out of these four things and called them 'nutriment'?

Maybe just a rephrasing it in a way that would have more impact on that particular audience? It seems he used certain allusions when speaking to Brahmins, others when speaking to householders, fellow mendicants, renunciates and so forth. Maybe it's just another approach in his repertoire?

[lrtoinbert]

Most likely. I suspect they're allusions to memes contemporary to the Buddha's time and location, though.

I will tell you a secret.

As I said, the nutriments have always intrigued me. Then yesterday, on another forum, a member started a thread asking for the sutta about nutriment.

Then, somehow, my mind came to interpret the last three similes. After around 15 years with these riddles in the back of my mind, the interpretation arose spontenously.

So I thought to start this thread. (Yes, at the end, I will post my opinion.)

The similes are excellent similes but not each is directly about the four nutriments themselves or the subject matter in the sutta.

[Eromereorybig]

(Yes, at the end, I will post my opinion.) Aaargh!! Life is short! The end is near! Tell us, already!

[Xbcofega]

thank you very much for starting this thread, element

i am not a scholar, but a person who practises Buddha's Teaching (with the little that i have read and heard)

according to what i have heard/listened/read , the one who understand the 'edible food - kabalinkara ahara' become non-returner
and
the one who understand the other three types of food become Arahnt

[DJkillos]

and in kitagiri sutta Buddha says 'it is advisable to have one meal a day' in order to have five advantages

[Galsteinbok]

according to what i have heard/listened/read , the one who understand the 'edible food - kabalinkara ahara' become non-returner
and the one who understand the other three types of food become Arahnt

welcome Upekka

thank you for accepting my invitation

yes, certainly the sutta seems to state when sensual passion & indulgence towards edible food ends then one becomes a non-returner

i think the last three similes are very interesting

i would like to read what some other members have to say about them

kind regards

Element

[CializCialiscsqw]

@Element...

The below site article of any used? Maybe you have already come across it.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/a.../wheel105.html

Regard.

[Licacivelip]

thanks ATC.... i am aware of this article but i hoped members could offer their interpretations of the similes

but if there is anything in the article you feel is relevent, please feel free to post it & comment on it

regards

[BUMbaronos]

This theme is a personal favorite of mine and one which runs very deep - to the core of the dhamma. Studying it has helped me to understand so much. I will have a think over the points and offer my 'spin' on them when I get an opportunity.