[exeftWabreava]

Hello all,

I am through the Nibbedhika Sutta (AN 6.63) and along this teaching the Buddha, constantly states that "contact" is the cause bye which sensuality comes into play.

After this, the Buddha states that from the cessation of "contact" is the cessation of sensuality... of the cessation of feeling... of perception... of kamma...

For this ones is the cessation of "contact" the way that leads to the cessation of sensuality, feeling, perception and kamma.

After this, the Buddha then gives the prescription of the Eightfold Noble Path:

"And what is the cessation of sensuality? From the cessation of contact is the cessation of sensuality; and just this noble eightfold path — right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration — is the way leading to the cessation of sensuality. "And what is the cessation of feeling? From the cessation of contact is the cessation of feeling; and just this noble eightfold path — right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration — is the way leading to the cessation of feeling. So, two questions arise:

What is meant by "contact" here?

How can I understand -and thus realize- the cessation of feeling through "contact". We are constantly exposed to environmental stimulation and thus "to feel" is impossible to stop or not to have "contact" with our surroundings.

"There are these three kinds of feeling: a feeling of pleasure, a feeling of pain, & feeling of neither pleasure nor pain. Is feeling here the same as emotional reactions?

How can feeling of pain can be ceased? I can understand that this is possible for mental stress but I think it is not the case for physical pain.

Anyway, help is needed...

[wgX44EEn]

Hi, Kaarine,

The Buddha's definition of contact (phasso) is this:

The eye sees a form and there is the arising of eye-consciousness. The meeting of the three is called contact (eye-contact). From that contact a sensation (visual sensation or visual "sensuality") arises that is pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral.

The same sequence applies with hearing, smelling, touching, tasting, and mental functions (all six senses as defined in the Eastern tradition).

From there, one can cling to that pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral sensation (paticcasamuppada, leading to suffering), or one can let that sensation be (paticcanirodha, leading to liberation from suffering).

The feeling or sensation is not an emotional reaction, it is the quality of the sensory experience. Emotion is a reaction to it.

Pain is an unpleasant bodily sensation (bodily contact --> sensation that is unpleasant).

[yWleIJm4]

Thanks Stuka,

So, when the Buddha teaches "the cessation of contact is the cessation of feeling" he teaches not to cling when eye-form-consciousness meet? Not to cling is to cease "phasso"?

When it is a pleasant feeling I can understood not to cling, but when it is unpleasant, to what we cling then?

[jhfkgkfdvjk]

When it is a pleasant feeling I can understood not to cling, but when it is unpleasant, to what we cling then?

Hi Kaarine,

If I am in pain, I can cling on to the unpleasantness of it, thinking "Oh...I am in such terrible pain...how can I bear it..why is this happening to me?" - - and so on !

.

[Niiinioa]

Hi Kaarine,

If I am in pain, I can cling on to the unpleasantness of it, thinking "Oh...I am in such terrible pain...how can I bear it..why is this happening to me?" - - and so on !

.

Yes, that is what happens...

[zooworms]

Thanks Stuka,

So, when the Buddha teaches "the cessation of contact is the cessation of feeling" he teaches not to cling when eye-form-consciousness meet? Not to cling is to cease "phasso"?

When it is a pleasant feeling I can understood not to cling, but when it is unpleasant, to what we cling then?

When we cling, we cling to that feeling as "mine" (or as "me", or a part of "me").

Buddhadasa wrote of practise as "mindfulness at phasso, and barring that, at craving, at clinging, etc. The point being that one should strive to catch and correct oneself at some point in the process, and the earlier on that one does so, the better. Ill try and dig up a link to that . I know some of his works are also translated into Spanish, too, did you know?

[SoOW2LeA]

Nibbedhika Sutta (AN 6.63) states that "contact" is the cause bye which sensuality comes into play.

hi

we must always take care whenever the word "cause" is used because in Pali there are many words that are translated into "cause", often incorrectly

there is hetu (preceding cause), paccaya (condition) and samudhaya (origination; arising)

in the case of AN 6.63, the Pali is the unusual nidānasambhava

Nidāna (nt.) [Sk. nidāna, ni+*dāna of dā, dyati to bind, cp. Gr. de/sma, dh_ma (fetter) & see dāma] (a) (n.) tying down to; ground (lit. or fig.), foundation, occasion; source, origin, cause; reason, reference, subject

Sambhava [saŋ+bhava] 1. origin, birth, production both of these words are found in a small part of MN 38

Cattārome, bhikkhave, āhārā bhūtānaṃ vā sattānaṃ ṭhitiyā, sambhavesīnaṃ vā anuggahāya. Katame cattāro? Kabaḷīkāro āhāro oḷāriko vā sukhumo vā, phasso dutiyo, manosañcetanā tatiyā, viññāṇaṃ catutthaṃ.

Ime ca, bhikkhave, cattāro āhārā kiṃnidānā kiṃsamudayā kiṃjātikā kiṃpabhavā?

Bhikkhus, there are these four kinds of nutriment (àhàra) for the maintenance (ñhiti) of beings that
already have come to be and for the entry of those seeking birth. What four? They are: physical food
(kabaliïkàra) as nutriment, gross or subtle; contact (phassa) as the second; mental volition
(manosacetanà) as the third; and consciousness (vinnàna) as the fourth.

Now, bhikkhus, what do these four kinds of nutriment have as their ground (nidàna) and their origin
(samudaya), from what are they born (jàti) and produced (pabhava)? These four kinds of nutriment
have craving (taõhà) as their ground and their origin; they are born and produced from craving.

by Patrick Kearney in his most recent translation of MN 38, Bhikkhu Bodhi uses the word "source" for "nidana"

Bhikkhu Bodhi also uses "source" for nidana in SN 14.12

sanidānaṃ, bhikkhave, uppajjati kāmavitakko, no anidānaṃ; sanidānaṃ uppajjati byāpādavitakko, no anidānaṃ; sanidānaṃ uppajjati vihiṃsāvitakko, no anidānaṃ

Bhikkhus, sensual thoughts arise with a source, not without a source; thought of ill will arises with a source, not without a source; thought of harming arises with a source, not without a source. And how is this so?

In dependence on the sensuality element there arises sensual perception; in dependence on the sensual perception there arises sensual intention; in dependence on the sensual intention there arises sensual desire; in dependence on the sensual desire there arises sensual passion; in dependence on the sensual passion there arises a sensual quest. Engaged in a sensual quest, the uninstructed worldling conducts himself wrongly in three ways - with body, speech and mind.

In dependence on the ill will element there arises perception of ill will...

In dependence on the cruelty element there arises perception of harming... in his translation of AN 6.63 Bhikkhu Buddhadasa used the word "birthplace" for nidānasambhava

Bhikkhus, what is the birthplace (nidānasambhava) of those actions? The birthplace of those actions is contact (phassa).

Karma From His Own Lips the point is, as shown by SN 14.12, contact is not the cause of sensuality. sensuality is an element (dhatu), an underlying tendency (anusaya) and an outflow (asava). sensuality is not "caused" by contact.

as AN 6.63 states: "Contact is the source by which sensuality comes into play."

with metta

element

[Adimondin]

So, when the Buddha teaches "the cessation of contact is the cessation of feeling" he teaches not to cling when eye-form-consciousness meet? Not to cling is to cease "phasso"?

hi KA

the pali word being translated as 'cessation' is 'nirodha'. the word 'nirodha' is best translated as 'quenching' or 'extinguishing', just as the flames of a fire 'extinguish'

the most serious error in modern Pali translation is the use of the word 'cessation' for 'nirodha'. this is a fatal error, totally distorting the teachings

in his 3rd sermon, the Buddha described how consciousness, the sense spheres & contact are "on fire", with the fire of lust, the fire of hatred & the fire of delusion

so 'nirodha' is when the fires of greed, hatred & delusion are extinguished. that is all

the meaning & experience of 'nirodha' is found in the 1st sermon

Nirodha of suffering, as a noble truth, is this: It is remainderless fading and ceasing, giving up, relinquishing, letting go and rejecting of that same craving

Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta when contact 'quenches' (cools down) or is 'extinguished', this means the fires of greed, hatred & delusion are extinguished from contact

this is the same as when a house fire is extinguished. if the fire truck arrives on time, the fire is extinguished but the house remains

the house does not 'cease'

similarly, contact and feelings do not 'cease'

the suttas make it clear an arahant does not cease to experience contact and feelings

with metta

element

What, bhikkhus, is the Nibbana-element with residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant, one whose taints are destroyed, the holy life fulfilled, who has done what had to be done, laid down the burden, attained the goal, destroyed the fetters of being, completely released through final knowledge. However, his five sense faculties remain unimpaired, by which he still experiences what is agreeable and disagreeable and feels pleasure and pain. It is the extinction of attachment, hate and delusion in him that is called the Nibbana-element with residue left.

Iti 2.17

[Essefsbyday]

When we cling, we cling to that feeling as "mine" (or as "me", or a part of "me").

Buddhadasa wrote of practise as "mindfulness at phasso, and barring that, at craving, at clinging, etc. The point being that one should strive to catch and correct oneself at some point in the process, and the earlier on that one does so, the better.

Thanks Stuka

Seems then that the contact is the place to practice mindfulness, instead to wait to the fabrication of mental fabrications moment, isn't it?

Ill try and dig up a link to that. Yes, please... could be of great help.

I know some of his works are also translated into Spanish, too, did you know? No I didn't. Are them available in Internet?

[NudiJuicervich]

the point is, as shown by SN 14.12, contact is not the cause of sensuality. sensuality is an element (dhatu), an underlying tendency (anusaya) and an outflow (asava). sensuality is not "caused" by contact.

as AN 6.63 states: "Contact is the source by which sensuality comes into play."

with metta

element

So, for the Thanissaro Bhikkhu translation, where it is written cause, it is recommendable to cross out "cause" and write "source" or more correctly "birthplace" because it is the particular case of 6.63 as "Niddanasambhava".

Let's see how the sutta works with the change...

Thanks Element,

[emily]

so 'nirodha' is when the fires of greed, hatred & delusion are extinguished. that is all

A radical change of quality in its meanings. So, the contact of the "run of the mill" person is "on fire" while the contact of the Arahat or the Noble Disciple is the one where lust, hate and delusion are extinguished or quenched.

when contact 'quenches' (cools down) or is 'extinguished', this means the fires of greed, hatred & delusion are extinguished from contact

this is the same as when a house fire is extinguished. if the fire truck arrives on time, the fire is extinguished but the house remains

the house does not 'cease'

similarly, contact and feelings do not 'cease'

the suttas make it clear an arahant does not cease to experience contact and feelings

with metta

element Understood... So, for the cases of "cessation", in the suttas, are to be understood as Nirodha?

Thanks a lot Element,

[jessyhalm]

Just wanted to add my thanks, Element, those were very useful posts.

[IntinyBut]

I remember seeing a documentary about a boy who had his eye removed at early eage because of rare and aggressive cancer.
However he developled amazing ability to navigate using echolocation.
The reason i am using this example because it make me think about contact, which as I remember that contact is defined as comming together
a) external object ( car house human being, e.t.c)
b) associated organ ( but in this case it is ear!!!) ,
c) associated consciousness ( will it be eye or ear counsciesness? If it eye how can there be a contact, since eyes are removed. If it is ear, that how is it possible since he sees forms using ears.)

Should the definition of contact be modified?
Also you know there is medical device which allows blind humans to get vary low res images using tounge?

How should one make sense of contact in this case.

My thoughts at the moment are that it is not the eye exactly, but object that senses forms ( sounds, smells, e.t.c). ( Which in this case it can be, ear, touch, eye, tounge ( not sure about nose) )

[avdddcxnelkaxz]

interesting post there, Haplo

Wikipedia has a page about human echolocation

but possibly what is functioning together is the ear sense base and the mind sense base

in other words, it may be the mind creating mental images of the shape of "forms" (such as a tree or house) based on what it hears, in the same way the mind has dreams at night

also, echolocation may also use the body sense base to touch forms, which may assist the mind to create its images of forms & shapes

just a possibility

there are six sense bases, namely, eye, ear, nose, tongue, body and mind so echolocation may function via the ear, body & mind

with metta

element

[SHUSIATULSE]

But again the question here what is reffered to mind.
There are 5 holding aggregates, Nama-rupa, feeling, perception, Sankahara, and vinanna ( consciousnes).
Now, if contact is comming together of ( external object, your organ that processes information coming from externam object and sends signal to the brain,
consciessness associated particular properties arising).

Suppose I look outside the window andbo I see the car, which is aut to start. Immediately I can identify the particular car by its shape and/or color ( eye consciousness), sound (noise it makes), maybe touch if I go closer and touch it, maybe smell if it is old car and I cant think of taste. So bascially there are 4 different vinannas ( that form the experience of the of the car). From that imformation I can idenfity what model of the car it is, who owns it, maybe how much gasoline it has left, how many people are present in the car, where they are going and comming back, e.t.c ( this whole process of thinking and reasoning is probably citta )

Now suppose I developed great echolocation skill and I close my eyes and look at the car. Right now eyes are closed so there is no way I can see color. Still if I am good enough I would be able to identify the specific car, but because I dont see color there is large chance of mistake.

Newetheless, what I am trying to clarify for myself is what is this eye/ear/tocuch/e.t.c consciousness is. Its also a little bit confusing because: percetion of external shapes can obviously be accomplish any sensory organs, ( except mano of course).

Cant make sense of it at the moment, i will try to clarify my thoughs later.

[Yarmark]

Newetheless, what I am trying to clarify for myself is what is this eye/ear/tocuch/e.t.c consciousness is.

Consciousness is 'knowing'; 'experiencing'

For example, a camera functions the same as an eye but a camera does not have any 'knowing' or 'experiencing'

Regards

[Sandra_18X]

Thanks, thats true. Looks like it makes sense, I was just trying to awnser irrelevant question.