[Filling25]

dear Pali sutta thumpers & other friends

i was reading a sutta today and noticed how it seems to contradict another sutta

in this sutta (AN 10.93), the householder Anathapindika is reported to have possessed supramundane understanding

yet another sutta (MN 143) seems to report Anathapindika did not possess supramundane understanding (until prior to his death)

i came to the conclusion that one of the suttas could not be a genuine account of history and thus must be a later addition

(however, the content of neither sutta is contrary to the core principles of the Buddha-Dhamma)

are there others suttas we know of that are either blatant contradictions to core principles and/or simply suspected additions?

kind regards

Element

Anathapindika the householder said to the wanderers: "Now this view has been brought into being, is fabricated, willed, dependently originated. Whatever has been brought into being, is fabricated, willed, dependently originated, that is inconstant. Whatever is inconstant is stress. This venerable one thus adheres to that very stress, submits himself to that very stress."

AN 10.93: Ditthi Sutta: Views Householder, you should train yourself in this way: 'I won't cling to what is seen, heard, sensed, cognized, attained, sought after, pondered by the intellect; my consciousness will not be dependent on that.' That's how you should train yourself."

When this was said, Anathapindika the householder wept and shed tears. Ven. Ananda said to him, "Are you sinking, householder? Are you foundering?"

"No, venerable sir. I'm not sinking, nor am I foundering. It's just that for a long time I have attended to the Teacher and to the monks who inspire my heart but never before have I heard a talk on the Dhamma like this."

"This sort of talk on the Dhamma, householder, is not given to lay people clad in white. This sort of talk on the Dhamma is given to those gone forth."

"In that case, Ven. Sariputta, please let this sort of talk on the Dhamma be given to lay people clad in white. There are clansmen with little dust in their eyes who are wasting away through not hearing [this] Dhamma. There will be those who will understand it."

MN 143: Anathapindikovada Sutta: Instructions to Anathapindika

[DoctorAlexandro]

Or recently, we had a thread about how Bhikkhu Analayo PhD seemed to attempt to repudiate the principles of MN 117 about two kinds of right view, namely, mundane and supramundane, on the basis MN 117 includes the language of the Abhidhamma

Whilst the Abhidhamma assertion may have some merits, the principles in MN 117 do not contradict the core principles of the suttas

The suttas demonstrate the Buddha used the word lokuttara (supramundane; transendent) often (eg. SN 20.7) and that he definitely taught two kinds of right view (eg. MN 60 vs SN 12.15)

What is sammasati? Sati means to bear in mind or bring to mind. Sati is the state of recollecting, the state of remembering, the state of non-fading, the state of non-forgetting. Sati means the sati that is a Spiritual Faculty, the sati that is a Spiritual Power, Sammasati, the Sati that is an Enlightenment Factor, that which is a Path Factor and that which is related to the Path. This is what is called sammasati.

Vbh.105, 286

And what is the right view that is without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path? The discernment, the faculty of discernment, the strength of discernment, analysis of dhammas as a factor for Awakening, the path factor of right view of one developing the noble path whose mind is noble, whose mind is free from effluents, who is fully possessed of the noble path. This is the right view that is without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path.

And what is the right resolve that is without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path? The thinking, directed thinking, resolve, (mental) fixity, transfixion, focused awareness & verbal fabricators of one developing the noble path whose mind is noble, whose mind is without effluents, who is fully possessed of the noble path. This is the right resolve that is without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path.

Maha-cattarisaka Sutta: The Great Forty

[BqTyG9eS]

I recall reading contradictory suttas about the numbers of kinds of things, like one sutta will say 'there are 8 kinds of X' and the very next sutta will say something like, 'there are 9 kinds of X.'

I've noticed a tendency in some to attribute western-style (Judeo-Christian) omniscience to the Buddha, and therefore sutta-thump much in the same way as fundamentalist Christians claim inerrancy in the Bible. I don't think strict literalism is the proper interpretive approach, as I don't think the suttas were composed with literalism in mind.

[pertikuss]

Hi Element,

Knowing that I am beginner at the subtle art of "sutta thumping" this are some comments for the first set of suttas; the "Anathapindika Suttas (AN10.93; MN143)" at the OP.

AN 10.93 remembers me DN1. Seems that both are about clinging to views. The closing formula for each view given at DN1 is:

36 This, bhikshus, the Tathāgata understands. And he understands thus:
‘These standpoints,64 thus grasped, thus misapprehended, will lead to such a future destiny, to such a
state beyond.’
And thus, the Tathāgata understands; he understands, too, what transcends this. Yet, he does not misapprehend
[cling on to] that understanding.65 [17] And because he is free from wrong grasping, he has
known for himself [within himself]66 the cool [happy] state.
Having understood, as they really are, the arising, and the ending, and the gratification, and the
danger, and the escape regarding feelings, the Tathagata, bhikshus, is liberated through non-clinging.

DN1
From such, I am not sure if the "cool [happy] state" is awakening or eventualy leads to awakening, because at the end we read to be"liberated through non-clinging".

Seems that Anathapindika at AN 10.93 has mastered the "Net of Views" but when going to the moment when Anathapindika is near to death, the instructions given to him seem similar to the practice of the instructions given at the Satipatana Sutta.

If the condition of dropping all clinging to views are not enough for awakening, then both suttas complement, taken not as historical development of the awakening of Anathapindika but, through the use of a same character, to give an example of the need to develop the "non self" realization as a final path for awakening.

If the condition of dropping all clinging to views is enough for awakening, both sets can be taken apart from each other knowing that both understandings can lead to awakening.

However, AN 10.93 do not seem to me as a teaching for final awakening but a needed condition toward the goal, while MN143 seems an instruction for final awakening. As far as I can go, the realization of the instructions for MN 143 need the realization of AN 10.93 but AN 10.93 seems not enough for the final goal.

In my experience, a quite mental state, the stilness of mind precedes the abandonment of views and such abandonment leads to futher insight and a deepened state of mental peace.

But anyway... help is needed...

[thighikergove]

Goodness me; too heavy at this stage; its back to the bubs for me.....

[elektikaka]

...However, AN 10.93 do not seem to me as a teaching for final awakening but a needed condition toward the goal, while MN143 seems an instruction for final awakening. As far as I can go, the realization of the instructions for MN 143 need the realization of AN 10.93 but AN 10.93 seems not enough for the final goal.

thanks Kaarine

(sorry about missing your post earlier)

i just researched SN 55.26 & 27, which seem to suggest Anathapindika was a stream-enterer

however, my view still remains if Anathapindika was a stream-enterer then he would have known the instruction in MN 143

MN 143 still seems like simple non-attachment to me (rather than an arahant's penetration of the Three Characteristics)

at the end of MN 143, Anathapindika is reported to have appeared in Tusita heaven (thus did not reach arahantship)

kind regards

[QEoMi752]

Goodness me; too heavy at this stage; its back to the bubs for me.....

yes...just some scholarly bookworming we are doing...

[GueseVekdet]

this is my take:
without doubt Anathapindika was a stream-winner (have the Right view)
but afterward he didn't practice (not had much effort to practice) and just interested in 'Dana'

at his last breath he understood, he should have practice 'sathara sathi pattana' but he did'nt

that was he understood very well