[Extipletape]

It just occurred to me, is the Nibbhana sutta merely stating the highest arupa jhana absorption. Is this necessarily enlightenment? Thoughts?

There is that dimension where there is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor wind; neither dimension of the infinitude of space, nor dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, nor dimension of nothingness, nor dimension of neither perception nor non-perception; neither this world, nor the next world, nor sun, nor moon. And there, I say, there is neither coming, nor going, nor staying; neither passing away nor arising: unestablished, unevolving, without support (mental object).[1] This, just this, is the end of stress.

Nibbana Sutta

[margoaroyo]

hi Deshy

i think we can have a tendency to read too much into this quote. i spun my mind around this quote for many hours once

for me, it is not about non-perception. for me, it is simply stating there is a 'thing' that is not earth, etc,...

if we remove the "where" (yattha) from the quote, it can sound more simple

“Monks! There is that cognizable object (āyatana) that is not earth, water, fire and air. It is not the realm of Infinity of Space, nor the realm of Infinity of Consciousness, nor the realm of Nothingness, nor the realm of Neither Perception nor Non-perception. It is not this world nor other worlds. No moon nor sun shines there. Here, monks, I say there is no going or coming. It has no foothold or residence. It is deathless, unborn and unformed. It has no abode. Nothing ever occurs there. It is not an object of support/concern (ārammana) [for craving]. It is the end of suffering.” kind regards

[Eujacwta]

“Monks! There is that cognizable object (āyatana) that is not earth, water, fire and air. It is not the realm of Infinity of Space, nor the realm of Infinity of Consciousness, nor the realm of Nothingness, nor the realm of Neither Perception nor Non-perception. It is not this world nor other worlds. No moon nor sun shines there. Here, monks, I say there is no going or coming. It has no foothold or residence. It is deathless, unborn and unformed. It has no abode. Nothing ever occurs there. It is not an object of support/concern (ārammana) [for craving]. It is the end of suffering.” Thanks

[wasssallx]

It just occurred to me, is the Nibbhana sutta merely stating the highest arupa jhana absorption. Is this necessarily enlightenment? Thoughts?

Hi Deshy,
I'd say it's beyond the highest arupa jhana, as it states "nor the realm of Neither Perception nor Non-perception" which is the highest arupa jhana as far as I know.

It reminded me of viññanam anidassanam - the consciousness without feature mentioned here:
"'Consciousness without surface,
endless, radiant all around,
has not been experienced through the earthness of earth ... the liquidity of liquid ... the fieriness of fire ... the windiness of wind ... the allness of the all.' The notes [9] to this are interesting too.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit....049.than.html

It reminds me of a question I posted in the Theravadan forum on E-Sangha many years ago. I asked whether highest/complete (post death) nibbana was cognised.

I was told (in no uncertain terms) that it was not.

[Oriesssedleli419]

I asked whether highest/complete (post death) nibbana was cognised.

What do you mean ?

[HedoShoodovex]

Consciousness without surface, endless, radiant all around... Sounds like the nimitta

[radicalvolume]

i spun my mind around this quote for many hours once

Element, do you think the meditative absorptions leading from the highest arupa jhana necessarily lead to Nibbhana?

[Speareerfug]

hi Deshy

"spun my mind" means i did alot of research (Nanananda, etc) but in the end just came to my own opinion

the highest arupa jhana would probably be the cessation of perception & feeling

just guessing, my opinion is it certainly would lead to Nibbana for one that has been instructed about Nibbana

being instructed in Nibbana means one understands the goal is to not cling to anything

my opinion is, in the cessation of perception & feeling, all sense of 'existence' (bhava) or 'thingness' would end

thus, with such familiarity with non-existence, the mind would easily understand any sense of existence is mere illusion

Nibbana is the non-clinging to both non-existence & existence/thingness

kind regards



Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, Sariputta entered & remained in the cessation of feeling & perception. Seeing with discernment, his fermentations were totally ended [Nibbana].

MN 111

[Kiliunjubl]

"spun my mind" means i did alot of research

Yea I figured Unfortunately I am lazy to research thus the smiley face

just guessing, my opinion is it certainly would lead to Nibbana for one that has been instructed about Nibbana

This sounds good along with the sutta quote. But you know, I thought whether or not your were previously informed of Dhmma and Nibbhana, the highest arupa jhana should bring complete cessation. This is realization via direct experience. WDYT?

[illilmicy]

Sounds like the nimitta

I thought nimitta were the signs a contemplative experiences just prior to jhana.

What do you mean ? I don't know how to answer that, as I thought my sentence was very explicit.
What didn't you understand?

[Indian Butt Magic]

i did alot of research (Nanananda, etc

I like his stuff. Very good indeed.

the highest arupa jhana would probably be the cessation of perception & feeling

just guessing, my opinion is it certainly would lead to Nibbana for one that has been instructed about Nibbana

being instructed in Nibbana means one understands the goal is to not cling to anything

my opinion is, in the cessation of perception & feeling, all sense of 'existence' (bhava) or 'thingness' would end That's my understanding of it too.

[wrefrinny]

I thought nimitta were the signs a contemplative experiences just prior to jhana.

It is. The quoted part sounds like how nimitta is perceived.

What didn't you understand?

This:
I asked whether highest/complete (post death) nibbana was cognised

[MontyP@thon]

It is. The quoted part sounds like how nimitta is perceived.

Okay.
This: It doesn't matter anyway. Forget it.

[ecosportpol_ru]

Okay