[ulw7A8Po]

.

[Voliscietle]

One truth and two expressions of it or two truths? The only real question for me is, 'Which of these two concepts/views is the more helpful?'

[smirnoffdear]

When we see that the weather is just weather, and that outside of 'whether' we like it or not it is empty of any intrinsically existing quality, we start to see beyond our attachments to it, realizing that it is changing all the time. When you start to let go of attachments to passing phenomena, you start to cut away at the causes of suffering, which is clinging and so forth.

Really, there is no speculation. You can try this out all the time. I don't understand why people insist that this is speculative.

This method relies on concocting a 'view' that things are empty of inherent existence, then employing that view to lessen or deny the impact of afflictions. This is already removing oneself from what is actually happening and employing a 'fix' to skirt the issue. But if that helps you, then that's fine.

I took refuge as a Mahayanist and launched myself into the one thing that interested me; the study of emptiness. I studied the tenets of the four schools and was very much able (after two years) to debate the hind leg off any donkey that cared to cross my path.

I've been a Buddhist for 24 years, most of which I was a fully signed up Madhyamika Prasangika. There's nothing in what you have written, that I haven't trotted out myself on many occasions in the complete certainty that I was right.

So, why do I no longer espouse this view? It has everything to do with finding the Buddha's teachings on jhana and putting them into practice. You don't need a view to do this, you just need to be still breathing and to have an open mind - to suspend expectation if you will.

what do you think, friend? Try this:
"Just as if there were a roofed house or a roofed hall having windows on the north, the south, or the east. When the sun rises, and a ray has entered by way of the window, where does it land?"

"On the western wall, lord."

"And if there is no western wall, where does it land?"

"On the ground, lord."

"And if there is no ground, where does it land?"

"On the water, lord."

"And if there is no water, where does it land?"

"It does not land, lord." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit....064.than.html

If you understand what this means, it will explain where I'm at.

Namaste
Kris

[xkQCaS4w]

Well that IS interesting. I must have things all backwards then, because from my thicket of views, suffering, distress, despair, & fever is not what I experience at all, and in fact, disenchantment, dispassion, cessation & calm, is what seems to be increasing constantly. Plus feeling really happy most of the time. As for direct knowledge, full Awakening and Nibbana, I guess I'll just have to wait and see.

Kris' answer applies here too:

This method relies on concocting a 'view' that things are empty of inherent existence, then employing that view to lessen or deny the impact of afflictions. This is already removing oneself from what is actually happening and employing a 'fix' to skirt the issue. But if that helps you, then that's fine.

But if you are so disenchanted dispassionate, and calm, Fio, why do you find it so necessary to trot out mahayana speculative views in the Theravada forum, and go on and on about their superiority over the Buddha's own liberative teachings, to which they are completely irrelevant?

[xqdrocherz]

...why do you find it so necessary to trot out mahayana speculative views in the Theravada forum, and go on and on about their superiority over the Buddha's own liberative teachings, to which they are completely irrelevant?

What exactly did I say that was speculative? You flung some quote at me about how I am having a fever, which is speculation. I checked, and I am not having a fever. That fact is neither mahayana nor theravada. But thanks for caring. The soup was very "thera" -peutic.

Also, I am participating because I kept getting emails inviting me to BWB. So, here I am. Let's party!

[sportlife]

Why to mess with "two truths" here and there, for this and for that, absolute and relative, up and down... when there have been clearly exposed Four Noble Truths in the sake of hapiness [cessation of dukkha]?

[Cofeeman]

What exactly did I say that was speculative? You flung some quote at me about how I am having a fever, which is speculation. I checked, and I am not having a fever. That fact is neither mahayana nor theravada. But thanks for caring. The soup was very "thera" -peutic.

Also, I am participating because I kept getting emails inviting me to BWB. So, here I am. Let's party!

Your view, "things are empty of inherent existence is speculative. And your insistence that your speculative view is relevant is baseless speculation as well. And you should be intelligent enough to know that the word "fever" has more than one meaning.

[SappyAppy]

Your view, "things are empty of inherent existence is speculative. And your insistence that your speculative view is relevant is baseless speculation as well. And you should be intelligent enough to know that the word "fever" has more than one meaning.

I repeat, what did I say that was speculative? There is no speculation. You can try it out for yourself. Of course, that doesn't mean that you actually ever will. You can simply insist that If it's in the holy scriptures, then it must be true.

Nothing superstitious about that!

[AmfitNom]

I repeat, what did I say that was speculative?

Again, your view "things are empty of inherent existence"[as you narrowly and equivocally define "inherent existence"]" is speculative. And so is your insistence that that same speculative view is relevant to the Buddha's liberative teachings.

There is no speculation. Sure it is. Just step out in front of a bus and see for yourself.

You can try it out for yourself. Been there, done that.

Of course, that doesn't mean that you actually ever will. You can simply insist that If it's in the holy scriptures, then it must be true. Nothing superstitious about that!
Straw Man. I assert nothing of the kind.

[spravka.ua]

Also, I am participating because I kept getting emails inviting me to BWB. So, here I am. Let's party!

Hi f2,

The e-mail invitations you say you "kept getting" weren't sent from Admin - though of course you are very welcome here.

[JJascaxal]

Hi Aloka-D.

Do you agree or disagree with the writer ?

I absolutely agree with the writer.
May you find the causes of true happiness within.
bucky

[Yyaqyped]

So go step in front of a semi on the highway, and then come back and tell me all about how it was only ever just "appearances", ok?

...just make sure your insurance is paid up....


The fact that these words on the screen are really just pixels of light is irrelevant to, and contributes nothing towards, the problems the Buddha was addressing. Those pixels of light on your retinas are trying to tell you that you are about to be roadkill stew, for example.

Your theory of " taking appearances to be real" and liking or disliking them because we think they are real when they are not is advaitaist absurdity.


Some people go on and on about how things are not real, yet they quail and crawfish when asked to prove their theory by stepping in front of a bus. LOL.

Berkeley: "Matter is non-existent! The universe as we perceive it is but an illusion!"
Samuel Johnson (kicks a large stone): "I refute it thus!"

[KuevDulin]

FO: "Things are empty of inherent existence! You can't have peace of mind without this!"

Stuka (as Fo dives over the edge of the Grand Canyon): "When you get down there, let me know how that works out for you, and how relevant it was!"

[pimbertiemoft]

FO: "Things are empty of inherent existence! You can't have peace of mind without this!"

Stuka (as Fo dives over the edge of the Grand Canyon): "When you get down there, let me know how that works out for you, and how relevant it was!"

Or perhaps like this:

Two Prasangikas fall out over a girl.

A short story.

Bob: Hi Josh, what's this I hear about you and Claire?

Josh: Well, it's true Bob. Sorry dude but hey, remember she's not inherently yours!

B. True dude. She can't be located as a collection of her parts... rather like my fist here. (smack)

J. Ouch! That actually only nominally hurt. Ultimately it didn't. Try mine Bob! (smack)

B. Umph! The blood trickling from my mouth is 'name only' and is therefore irrelevant.

J. Trust you to just look at it from a personal point of view Bob. Emptiness is emptiness of self and other. I think you've degenerated to a Hinayanist.

B. Oh right! Well despite its lack of ultimate existence my boot packs a fairly hefty payload, especially when contacting your non-inherent groin! (wham)

J. Oh Man, that fuc... I mean in an illusory sense it...

B. Whilst you're down there Josh how about a couple more (wham, wham).

J. Ouch my ribs. Call an ambulance!

B. You do reaslise that the mere designation 'ambulance' is impossible to locate, either within its components or elsewhere for that matter?

J. Just call one for God's sake!!!

B. For God's sake? Oh Josh not only is all this appearing to you to be established in its own right but now you're invoking theism. All that from a dude who called me a Hinayanist.

Well, because I wish to demonstrate true compassion, I'll do as you request but remember to keep your conventionally filthy hands off my ultimately empty girlfriend in the future.

The End

[JeremyIV]

Two Prasangikas fall out over a girl. [...]

PS: Hope this can be translated into Pali so to have "The Kris Sutta: Falling Out Over a Girl" (KN1).

[Cnbaapuy]

I love it.....

[Imagimifouxum]

LOL. That would make for a great weekly cartoon strip....call it "PrasanGeeks"...

[Mabeavyledlib]

LOL. That would make for a great weekly cartoon strip....call it "PrasanGeeks"... Lol, yes, I was thinking of one looking similar to the one about reincarnation I posted #149 page 15 in the "Are rebirth beliefs important to....." thread.

[Trebbinsa]

of course there are convetional and ultamite reality, ultamite reality is there is no good or bad there is impermanence, unsatisfactoriness, and non self, the three characteristics are irrefutable facts that can be observed. conventional truth is there is good and bad, etc....

the benefit of understanding ultamite reality is that it can protect the mind from evil states because ultamitely there is no suffering so there can be no reaction and therefore no reason to act out. the two truths are two sides of the same coin, just because there is ultamite reality doesnt mean you should walk out in front of a bus. but it does mean in ultamite reality nothing is good or bad but everything is impermanet, suffering, and non self.