[Shemker394]

Hi All,
I've been having a little look at this sutta and I'd like to get everyone's opinion on it.
Basically two Brahmins ask Buddha about the correct path to union with Brahma.
Buddha asks:
is there then a single one of these Brahmins learned in the Three Vedas who has seen Brahma face to face? My initial thought here was that Buddha was guilty of anthropomorphism - by attributing a human trait to this state of "union". It would only make sense if the two chaps understood "union" as dualistically standing reverentially in the Brahma Realm before their god. Not union in a monist sense in any case.

Okay, for the purposes of this sutta, they went along with Buddha's line of thought and replied that none had seen Brahma face to face.

After this, Buddha asks whether any Brahmin has ever seen Brahma face to face, to which the reply is also no.

Then Buddha proceeds to deliver rebuke after rebuke, eg:
So what these Brahmins learned in the Three Vedas are saying is : “We teach this path to union with Brahma that we do not know or see One may then conclude that Brahma is being dismissed as a theist fancy but it's not quite the case, as Buddha then goes on to explain that he knows the path to Brahma.
For, Vasettha, I know Brahma and the world of Brahma, and the way to the world of Brahma, and the path of practice whereby the world of Brahma may be gained So is the problem with the manner of practice, rather than the concept of Brahma per se?
It would appear so, as Buddha instructs them on the correct manner:
“Then, with his heart filled with loving-kindness, he dwells suffusing one quarter, the second, the third, the fourth. Thus he dwells suffusing the whole world, upwards, downwards, across, everywhere, always with a heart filled with loving-kindness, abundant, unbounded 6 without hate or ill-will...

Just as if a mighty trumpeter were with little difficulty to make a proclamation to the four quarters, so by this meditation, Vasettha, by this liberation of the heart through cornpassion, …through sympathetic joy, … through equanimity, he leaves nothing untouched, nothing unaffected in the sensuous sphere. This, Vasettha, is the way to union with Brahma. I can see that Buddha was perhaps taking a gradualist approach here, addressing the query of the two Brahmins in order to lead them to higher teachings but...
The notes state that the 'Divine Abidings' (Brahmavihara) predate Buddhism, so isn't a bit disingenuous and propaganda-like to present a scenario where nobody had ever attained these abidings?

Also, am I correct in assuming that this is the basis for the practice of metta? As it stands here, that practice by itself is not one which is presented as resulting in liberation. Would that be a fair conclusion?

Namaste
Kris

Link:
http://www.dhammaweb.net/Tipitaka/read.php?id=13

[Nabeqiv]

Hi sriv!

I went through the whole sutta and, far from giving an interpretation, it gave me a very accurate picture of the muddle that seem Brahmanism at the time of the Buddha. This two guys, Vasettha and Bharadvaja, were really confused because they were given a teaching that was taught dishonestly. The Buddha talks, because of them, about Brahma and shows them, telling the metaphor of "seen Brahma face to face" as a means to say if the teaching has been experienced and tested through direct knowledge... where, according to the lifestyle of Brahmins, such experience was impossible to achieve. The only way to "see Brahma face to face..." was about a honest practice through loving kindness, equanimity, compassion and sympathetic joy; also with out hate and ill-will and with discipline and pureness.

The Buddha talks about "union with Brahma", maybe, to reach them with his words and this union with Brahma can be the same ultimate goal as the one that is reached by the way he teaches the Dhamma... leading to the ceasing of suffering.

At the end they follow the Buddhadhamma but I don't know if both of them were thinking about "the union with Brahma" or Nirvana.

It is my best try for now...

[Lenny Hensley]

Thanks Kaarine, a nice summary. Anyone else got anything on this?

[Dildos]

I have seen a tendency in notes to sutras of folks attempting to reconcile the Buddha's liberating teachings to their Brahmin beliefs. Buddhaghosa is particularly notorious in this, IMO

[dolaBeetCeage]

Yes, I've got his Path to Purification. Well off the mark IMHO. A scholar fumbling around papering over the cracks of his own lack of understanding.

[mymnarorump]

I don't think he ever got over being a Brahmin.

They hated it when I pointed that out at Dhamma Wheel....

[Fksxneng]

Is it true that when he arrived in Sri Lanka he torched all the existing material they had and re-issued it?

[meteeratymn]

I had not heard of that. Element points out that in one of his works he expresses his sincere desire that for his efforts he be reborn in the Heaven of the 72 Virgins or some such nonsense. I have seen nothing to indicate that they had the dynamite vests required for such a rebirth back then,though. But, as FBM always reminds, I could be wrong....