[retrahdggd]

With my meditation group, we are studying the Iddhipada-vibhanga Sutta: Analysis of the Four Bases of Power.

There's a translation at Access to Insight

I must say I'm finding it hard going, and I wonder if anyone here can say anything to help me with it.

In our translation (Thanissaro Bhikkhu modified by Rupert Gethin) the Four Bases are: The desire to act, strength, mind and investigation. Access To Insight has them as: desire, persistence, intent and discrimination.

The first two can be easily accepted as bases of power, as I think of them as sources of motivation. But I don't see how mind/intent and investigation/discrimination can be made to fit into that approach.

Then, there's much repetition in the Sutta, about perceiving what is in front and behind in the same way, perceiving what is above and below in the same way and dwelling by day and by night the same.

The Sutta goes on to explain how this is done, but only says it's done by discernment, reflection and modes, signs and themes.

I just don't understand what is meant by in front, behind, above and below. I also don't get how discernment and reflection are ways to do it.

I could start guessing what it means, but I wouldn't ever know if I was guessing right or not.

Any ideas?

[Unoloknovagog]

My understanding of this lies in the words, "awareness thus open & unhampered". The directions and so forth, indicated are all projections of mind. Impossibly miraculous powers are described, such as touching the sun, to indicate that there is something so profound which otherwise cannot be described.

An excerpt from "On Believing in Mind", a poem by the 7th century Zen master Seng-ts'an points to the same thing, phrased differently:

"The ultimate end of things where they cannot go any further
Is not bound by rules and measures:
In the Mind harmonious [with the Way] we have the principle of identity,
In which we find all strivings quieted;
Doubts and irresolutions are completely done away with,
And the right faith is straightened;
There is nothing left behind,
There is nothing retained,
All is void, lucid, and self-illuminating;
There is no exertion, no waste of energy
This is where thinking never attains,
This is where the imagination fails to measure."

----

Or, perhaps it is only in my imagination that there is any similarity between the messages in these two texts...

[syptopsygieds]

four bases of success (iddhipada) -- desire, persistence, intentness, circumspection;

http://www.thenazareneway.com/the_dh...uddhist_te.htm Iddhi

Iddhi [Vedic ṛddhi from ardh, to prosper; Pali ijjhati]. There is no single word in English for Iddhi, as the idea is unknown in Europe. The main sense seems to be ʻ potency ʼ. --

1. Pre -- Buddhistic; the Iddhi of a layman. The four Iddhis of a king are personal beauty, long life, good health, and popularity.

The Iddhi of a rich young noble is 1. The use of a beautiful garden, 2. of soft and pleasant clothing, 3. of different houses for the different seasons, 4. of good food, A i.145.

At M i.152 the Iddhi of a hunter, is the craft and skill with which he captures game; but at p. 155 other game have an Iddhi of their own by which they outwit the hunter. The Iddhi, the power of a confederation of clans, is referred to at D ii.72. It is by the Iddhi they possess that birds are able to fly (Dhp 175). --

2. Psychic powers. including most of those claimed for modern mediums (see under Abhiññā). Ten such are given in a stock paragraph. They are the power to project mind -- made images of oneself; to become invisible; to pass through solid things, such as a wall; to penetrate solid ground as if it were water; to walk on water; to fly through the air; to touch sun and moon; to ascend into the highest heavens --

3. The Buddhist theory of Iddhi.

At D i.213 the Buddha is represented as saying: ʻ It is because I see danger in the practice of these mystic wonders that I loathe and abhor and am ashamed thereof ʼ.

The mystic wonder that he himself believed in and advocated was the wonder of education. What education was meant in the case of Iddhi, we learn from M i.34; A iii.425, and from the four bases of Iddhi, the Iddhipādā. They are the making determination in respect of concentration on purpose, on will, on thoughts & on investigation.

It was ar offence against the regulations of the Sangha for a Bhikkhv to display before the laity these psychic powers beyond the capacity of ordinary men (Vin ii.112). And falsely to claim the possession of such powers involved expulsion from the Order (Vin iii.91). The psychic powers of Iddhi were looked upon as inferior (as the Iddhi of an unconverted man seeking his own profit), compared to the higher Iddhi, the Ariyan Iddhi (D iii.112; A i.93; Vin ii.183).

There is no valid evidence that any one of the ten Iddhis in the above list actually took place. A few instances are given, but all are in texts more than a century later than the recorded wonder. And now for nearly two thousand years we have no further instances.

http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/phi...l?p.0:119.pali .

[Yessaniloas]

hello Woodscooter,

the Iddhipada is not a subject that is widely taught. much of the subject matter in the sutta is about psychic power & at least displaying psychic power to laypeople is prohibited by the Vinaya

in Thailand, the Iddhipada are sometimes taught to laypeople, however, in a worldly way, as follows:

B. The principles of success: practicing according to the four conditions that lead to the success of any undertaking, known as the iddhipada (pathways to success):

Chanda: having a heart of zeal; to be keen to do something, and to do it for the love of it; to wish to bring an activity or task to its optimum fruition, not simply doing it to get it out of the way or merely for reward or material gain.

Viriya: doing with effort; to be diligent and apply oneself to a task with effort, fortitude, patience and perseverance, not abandoning it or becoming discouraged, but striving ever onward until success is attained.

Citta: committing oneself to the task; to establish one's attention on the task in hand and do it thoughtfully, not allowing the mind to wander; to apply one's thought to the matter regularly and consistently and do the task or action devotedly.

Vimamsa: using wise investigation; to diligently apply wise reflection to examine cause and effect within what one is doing and to reflect on, for example, its pros and cons, gains and shortcomings or obstructions. This can be achieved by experimenting, planning and evaluating results, and devising solutions and improvements in order to manage and carry out the activity in hand so as to achieve better results.

When applied to the work situation, for example, these four conditions may, in short, be remembered as love of work, tenacity, dedication and circumspection.

http://www.mahidol.ac.th/budsir/Part2_2.htm#9 The four iddhipada are chanda, love of duty; viriya, effort in duty; citta, thoughtfulness regarding duty; and vimamsa, investigation of duty through practicing Dhamma.

All Practical Dhammas (Dhammas to be practiced) fall into two categories: Dhamma tools and Dhamma fruits. Sila, samadhi, and pañña (moral responsibility, mental integration, and wisdom) are Dhamma tools; magga, phala, and nibbana (paths, fruitions, and Nibbana) are Dhamma fruits. The Dhamma tools can be further divided into two kinds: primary Dhammas such as the four satipatthana (foundations of mindfulness) and the supplementary Dhammas such as the four iddhipada (paths to success) and the four sammappadhana (right strivings). You ought to know these Dhammas so they can be applied correctly according to the circumstances of practice.

http://www.suanmokkh.org/archive/asiti/leg3.htm



http://www.what-buddha-taught.net/Bo...napanasati.pdf

[Pa33anger]

Hello again Woodscooter

I can only suggest to avoid Thanissaro's translation. In my opinion, in respect to the fourth iddhipada, adhere to the translations 'investigation' or 'circumspection'.

I personally have not studied the Iddhipada-Vibhanga Sutta in detail and, as I previously said, much of it is about the development of psychic power.

However, the beginning of the Iddhipada-Vibhanga Sutta is within our reach, which is about developing an open, unhampered, brightened mind.

This is one of the four mental developments (along with jhana, mindfulness & clear-comprehension and vipassana) described in the Samadhi Sutta, as follows:

And what is the development of [mind using] concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowing & seeing?

There is the case where a monk attends to the perception of light and is resolved on the perception of daytime [at any hour of the day]. Day [for him] is the same as night, night is the same as day. By means of an awareness open & unhampered, he develops a brightened mind.

This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowing & seeing.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit....041.than.html Thus, returning to your inquiry about how all four iddhipada are used, and basing your inquiry on developing a brightened mind, we can use the simile of cleaning & polishing a round glass or crystal vase.

The crystal vase is handled & looked upon with love & care (chanda); cleaning & polishing the vase require energy or exertion (viriya); attention, concentration or focus (citta) is required, so the vase is not dropped & broken; and circumspection, investigation or meticulous inspection (vimamsa) is required to ensure the entire vase is sparkling clean, that is, the top, the bottom, within, without, all sides and all parts.

A brightened unhampared open mind is developed or polished the same way. One requires zeal & motivation (chanda), application & effort (viriya) and focus of mind (citta) to inspect (vimamsa) the mind, in front (of one's face), behind (one's skull), above (one's head), below (throughout the body) and to the sides, to ensure the mind remains free open unhampered & bright in every direction.

With metta

Element

[Qxsumehj]

Dear Element,

Thank you for taking the time and trouble to answer my query in such great detail. Now I do truly have a better understanding of what the Sutta is saying.

To begin with, your hints at the meaning of Iddhi gave me an initial grip on the subject. To hear what were considered the iddhi of a king, or a young nobleman, or a hunter allowed me to form an idea of what iddhi conveys, and hence what iddhipada is about.

Now I have seen synonyms for the 4 bases, I can understand better what they each represent.

For instance, to see chanda translated as desire can mean a number of things. When joined with the alternatives: purpose, love of the work, zeal, then chanda comes into focus at last.

So it is with the other three.

Then the example of polishing a crystal vase makes perfect sense to me, and makes sense of the Sutta.

Being of an earth-bound disposition myself, I'm going to look at the description of the supranormal powers, the psychic powers, as metaphor for massive achievement as the result of perfect practice. (I still have some way to go before that.)

My group are currently studying this Sutta as part of a programme looking at all 37 factors of the bodhi-pakkhiya-dhamma. This has been the first one that I couldn't grasp at all. Now, I think I feel better about it, thanks to your help.

[Yifnvmzp]

This has been the first one that I couldn't grasp at all.

You're welcome Woodscooter

As I initially mentioned, the Iddhipada are probably the set of bodhi-pakkhiya-dhamma least discussed & least understood in Buddhism.

Upon reflection, I sense this is so because the use of the Iddhipada is the most subtle.

I sense the Iddhipada are about about the "quality" one applies to practise, which includes when practising the other bodhi-pakkhiya-dhamma.

My viewpoint here seems to accord with what Ajahn Buddhadasa said, that is:
The Dhamma tools can be further divided into two kinds: primary Dhammas such as the four satipatthana (foundations of mindfulness) and the supplementary Dhammas such as the four iddhipada (paths to success) and the four sammappadhana (right strivings). You ought to know these Dhammas so they can be applied correctly according to the circumstances of practice.

http://www.suanmokkh.org/archive/asiti/leg3.htm For me, I like the simple term "love" for chanda, that is, loving what one is doing is. When the term "love" is used, we can also introduce notions such as "compassion" being the driving or underlying motivation in our dhamma practice.

All the best with your studies. Have fun.

Element

[!!!maryann!!!]

All the best with your studies. Have fun.

Will do.