[Buincchotourbss]

If you can't take the truth don't seek it!

I have nothing against hiring any Haitian in the DR, nor any other nationality other than Dominican, always that the legal way is used to do so.

How do you think Americans, British, Canadians and even Mexicans feel about a foreigner knowingly hiring undocumented labor hands in their own country and stating what you just seem to support as the final truth, on their willingness to work for a pay check??????????

Take a very good look at how Haiti ended after less than 60 seconds from a temblor and tell me where the quality workmanship present was? The temblor pancaked poor to affluent homes the same, so talk on precarious building materials available is not the case for the haves.

You just place a willing to hire, knowingly undocumented, Haitian workers IN the DR while you yourself are a foreigner here, and there are plenty of legal laborers fit to work as required for the pay scale such jobs demands. We all know that domestic to foreign alike think that they pay "very good rates" above the established minimum of the sector, when the reality is that the established minimum or set going rate is far below from what peons get paid in reality. You aren't paying double or extra for the work, but close to what they should be getting paid is the gov had the balls to adjust salaries to levels workers could make a living from.

Me? Heck! I see "0" difference between Haitians and Dominicans; if it was my call I would unite the island under one single country, resolve the shifting of poverty from the side to side and outwards to sea seeking other greener pastures.

Just go online and post the same request/question on a US/UK/CAN/MEX forum, posing the same as a foreigner looking to hire that nation's current migrating workforce from other nations in their soil. See how decent and reserve my answer was to what you'll get from them...

[inmeirulez]

If you can't take the truth don't seek it!

Take a very good look at how Haiti ended after less than 60 seconds from a temblor and tell me where the quality workmanship present was? The temblor pancaked poor to affluent homes the same, so talk on precarious building materials available is not the case for the haves.

Well judging by the state of National Palace (which was built by the Americans during their occupation early last century) I think we can safely lay at least some of the blame for its collapse on the earthquake - not entirely at the feet of dodgy, corrupt Haitian construction workers.
Had you visited the palace you would know that it was pretty sturdy.

For example;
The Digicel building in Turjeau was designed by a Haitian architect and built by a Haitian company. (Although the boss hangs out in Canada)
Now admittedly they had some teething problems with the elevators not going all the way to the bottom due to a twisted superstructure, and the Chinese made windows not all fitting snugly the first time, but at least the bloody thing held up with only cosmetic damage!

Are you confident that would be the case in Santo Domingo for all the towers springing up these last few years - good luck with that!

And Pichardo, are you seriously suggesting that the guy actually tying the rebar and mixing the concrete is the one making the decision to skimp on materials?
That decision is taken higher up the chain of multiple sub-contractors, sub-sub-contractors and sub-sub-sub-contractors.
The workers do what they are told and keep their mouths shut or they lose their jobs. Same as here in the D.R.

So Pichardo, no matter how you try to spin this you cannot escape the fact that a mag.7+ Earthquake did the bulk of the damage.
You can argue all you want about ultimate or proximate cause but whatever corruption that led to buildings being flattened in Haiti was nothing to do with Haitian vs Dominican culture.

Again, when it happens in S.D. we shall see if those drug cash towers are still standing.

[Buincchotourbss]

Whatever!

You just don't get it there!

[inmeirulez]

I do not get what where?

[Buincchotourbss]

The fact that hiring an undocumented worker over a legal one is what feeds the actual problems in the sector. Calling DR workers lazy and unfit hands is the same each country facing the same labor pains complains about.

[Buincchotourbss]

You see?!? Don't get it... right?

[inmeirulez]

You insinuate that had the earthquake happened in a different country no damage would have been caused.
You also seem to think that if the Haitian workers were replaced the with good, honest, forthright, diligent Dominican workers then the buildings would be less likely to fall down.

Again, let us see what happens to Santo Domingo's cocaine towers when it happens here.....


Why will you not listen to the people with the relevant experience?

[Buincchotourbss]

Because I DO have the experience under the belt, unlike a many here that come for a few months and "have" the DR all figured out in their heads...

They don't even know what's happening now, let alone long term...

Like the UN team that provided that the DR is a racist society, where blacks are treated unequally than "whites"???? Please!

The experts in the field that come to tell us how all the towers in the DR are build upon drug money, yet can't figure out that Dominicans don’t apply to banks when buying their homes. Something that shines each time they come here and post questions on how to obtain mortgages, in order to finance their home in the newfound paradise here...

The experts that equate job rates with the formula used in their home nations, when in the DR informal jobs have always been the Kingdom and each man is King of his own job.

The experts that think that Dominicans are fools and they have the upper hands as highly educated/smart foreigners, later rethinking their base when having to leave the country penniless, after dealing with the poor/uneducated/fools that Dominicans are...

But who am I fooling?! I'm just but a Dominican influenced by the hospitality and complacent Taino traits, the gold prospector's desires of the Spanish conquistadores, mixed with the ex-convicts manning the boats to the Indies. The added cunning eye for anything of value that can be looted from the Buccaneers that made the DR their home base, the crooked sense of economics from years of French tutelage and lastly but not less important: Our own greed for junk fast food and drugs/booze stamped under two US military interventions.

You have your storied dirty dozen; we have our storied 10 million and growing...

Pass me a Ceniza please and lower the car windows for some fresh air!

[inmeirulez]

You blame everybody else for the ills here.

Illegal Haitian workers, Expats, Conquistadors, Gringos, the US Military, Even the French.
For a moment I was starting to pity your people and was thinking perhaps I misjudged them.

But then I realised you are not Dominican.
Not in the true sense of the word.
Not in the sense of Duarte, Luperon et al.
Dominicans do not whine about all the terrible things they have had to endure!!!

Be a man! - Be a Dominican man!

And also why not answer my posts while you are about it?

[Buincchotourbss]

You blame everybody else for the ills here.

Illegal Haitian workers, Expats, Conquistadors, Gringos, the US Military, Even the French.
For a moment I was starting to pity your people and was thinking perhaps I misjudged them.

But then I realised you are not Dominican.
Not in the true sense of the word.
Not in the sense of Duarte, Luperon et al.
Dominicans do not whine about all the terrible things they have had to endure!!!

Be a man! - Be a Dominican man!

And also why not answer my posts while you are about it?

Because the questions are lacking any support on facts!

What am I gay now?!?

If one thing we Dominicans never do is to blame others for our failures, but ourselves and those that we allow to lead us. That's why we keep repeating the same mistakes over and over again, until we get it and make it a genetic mutation to avoid them...

It takes one generation for those mutations to take hold here, but the point is that they do.

If a magnitude 7 temblor was to shake the DR, believe you me, the devastation now found in Haiti would not be copied even 10% in the DR.
There's no quake proof edification, there's however seismic resistance constructions, which allows occupants to exit the structures before failure brings it down.

I bet you that a 7 magnitude or higher temblor would level 90% of NYC!!! Keep in mind that NYC is built on rock and endless construction codes, yet the number of homes/structures that can and will fail is very high.

[inmeirulez]

If you could be any other country - what country would you want to be?
Because I bet you a jam tart that the country you chose has plenty of representatives here in the D.R.

[DoctoBuntonTen]

I have nothing against hiring any Haitian in the DR, nor any other nationality other than Dominican, always that the legal way is used to do so.

You just place a willing to hire, knowingly undocumented, Haitian workers IN the DR while you yourself are a foreigner here, and there are plenty of legal laborers fit to work as required for the pay scale such jobs demands. We all know that domestic to foreign alike think that they pay "very good rates" above the established minimum of the sector, when the reality is that the established minimum or set going rate is far below from what peons get paid in reality. You aren't paying double or extra for the work, but close to what they should be getting paid is the gov had the balls to adjust salaries to levels workers could make a living from.

I understand from Robert that you are 'fairly well connected' with the politicos here PICHARDO so I do not wish to offend you in any way. However, I feel I have to ask you (politely) to reconsider the paragraphs above & rewrite them to mirror the actual situation re employing/hiring of construction workers in this country?

The fact that hiring an undocumented worker over a legal one is what feeds the actual problems in the sector. Calling DR workers lazy and unfit hands is the same each country facing the same labor pains complains about.

I do not believe anyone here is in favour of hiring 'Undocumented workers over a legal one', certainly I do not. I do not get involved with the hiring of construction workers!!

Is it really WE, the foreigners, that call DR construction workers (for that is what we are talking about here - DOMINICAN construction workers) lazy & unfit ....... or others? You might like to respond to this too.

Thanks ~ Grahame.

[Buincchotourbss]

I understand from Robert that you are ------with the politicos here PICHARDO so I do not wish to offend you in any way. However, I feel I have to ask you (politely) to reconsider the paragraphs above & rewrite them to mirror the actual situation re employing/hiring of construction workers in this country?


I do not believe anyone here is in favour of hiring 'Undocumented workers over a legal one', certainly I do not. I do not get involved with the hiring of construction workers!!

Bushie, I believe the OP did in fact position a willing/liking/leaning vector to hiring Haitians over Dominicans. Read the OP and see for yourself...

Is it really WE, the foreigners, that call DR construction workers (for that is what we are talking about here - DOMINICAN construction workers) lazy & unfit ....... or others? You might like to respond to this too.

Thanks ~ Grahame. Indeed! 99% of posters here are foreign expats living and working in the DR (legal or not), who posted their berating on DR workers vs. Haitians.

BushB you know there's a huge gap between a worker that MUST give 200% to earn a paycheck (even if it could end up not getting paid after all the work is done) and one that meets the basic requirements for the pay.
Just because the official wages set for a laborer in the construction sector is getting paid the going rate or double, it still falls over 100% short of what they MUST be paid, in order to make an honest living (at least one that allows them to pay an electrical bill, food and rent).

How can we compare an undocumented Haitian worker who lacks even a sturdy or real roof over their heads, sanitary arrangements up to the century and pays (not) for water and electric like the rest with a formal home must, to a legal resident or native that must meet all those bills and eat???

God knows that 90% of undocumented workers are hired/exploited by Dominican natives, but where does that leaves the OP in requesting the services exclusively from that sector, while berating the local natives at the same time?

Is this explanation good enough?

[Maypeevophy]

Again, when it happens in S.D. we shall see if those drug cash towers are still standing.

Those drug cash towers have been built by Haitians. So applying your logic, if they fall they are the one to blame.

[Raj_Copi_Jin]

Pichardo and Vacara,

Whilst I have some strong views formed from alot of bad experiences using Dominican construction workers I want to take this opportunity to express my admiration for a group of 10 Dominican construction workers whom I encountered in Port au Prince recently.

They had traveled here directly after the quake with a group of their Haitian work buddies to assist them in looking for their family members trapped or killed in the rubble of their collapsed family homes.

They were working 20 hours a day with their hands and basic tools to move rubble and cut re-bar with hacksaws and crawling into small tunnels amongst the rubble. They would then collapse in the street for a few hours rest and then straight back into it. They had paid their own way across to Haiti and stayed for 10 days before leaving to go back to Santo Domingo.

This brief moment of solidarity between those construction site colleagues has been mirrored across all levels of the DR society during this tragedy. A wonderful and effective response from the Dominican nation to which you should all be very proud.

I may even hire more Dominican's now....... Pedrochemical just fell off his bar stool!!!

[DoctoBuntonTen]

God knows that 90% of undocumented workers are hired/exploited by Dominican natives, but where does that leaves the OP in requesting the services exclusively from that sector, while berating the local natives at the same time?

Is this explanation good enough?

Hola Pichie,
I am in an exceedingly good mood this afternoon having spent a very productive morning with a couple of friends, neither of whom were being followed or investigated by Interpol!!

I will therefore accept what passes as a form of apology from you (well, the nearest to an apology that I am going to get I am sure). You are correct in assuming that you covered the point I was going to raise ........ 90/95% of Haitian Construction workers are employed BY DOMINICAN Engineers & Architects .... NOT by us foreigners. When we hire an engineer/architect to build our properties, we entrust the hiring of correct & suitable labourers to them. As each runs a properly formed company, formed to Dominican Laws/regulations, we assume that these professional people will assume their rightful responsibilities!!

It is wrong of you to try to blame foreigners (indicating ALL foreigners) for the cutting of costs & provisions by those engineers/architects when employing illegal Haitian workers.

Bushie, I believe the OP did in fact position a willing/liking/leaning vector to hiring Haitians over Dominicans. Read the OP and see for yourself...

I DID read that ........... & then I RE-read it! There is nothing wrong with having a preference when one has the light of experience to justify the preference, IS THERE? But more to the point, at NO TIME did the OP suggest that he wished to employ ILLEGAL Haitians! He only requested information regarding Haitian construction site managers. That red herring/emotive subject was brought up solely by yourself to muddy the waters & get people on to your side - your way of thinking! ......... Naughty Sir!! Slapped wrists & things!

Now, back to the plot of Haitina Construction Site Managers (who we trust will be legal in that they ARE site MANAGERS!! ~ Grahame.

[Janny2006]

bushie and pichie FTW!!

[xrumerang]

bushie and pichie FTW!!

I suppose we should be grateful it isn't bichie and pushie........

[sobre]

Me? Heck! I see "0" difference between Haitians and Dominicans; if it was my call I would unite the island under one single country, resolve the shifting of poverty from the side to side and outwards to sea seeking other greener pastures.

Just go online and post the same request/question on a US/UK/CAN/MEX forum, posing the same as a foreigner looking to hire that nation's current migrating workforce from other nations in their soil. See how decent and reserve my answer was to what you'll get from them...

I was surprised to read this statement. Do you really support one country. One state, two nations? (I don't want to hijack this thread, but it's a good topic.)

On the subject of this thread, just because Haitian construction workers work for peanuts in the DR doesn't mean they will produce well and for peanuts under the oversight of a Haitian. Often I have observed that people who are taken advantage of in the labour market don't necessarily jump at the opportunity to work for their own nationality. Those formerly exploited ones sometimes get a little power and become monsters to work for. And their employees often get worse treatment at the hand of a compatriot. Maybe that's only in the diaspora, I'm not sure. I hear it all the time, "I'll never work for one of my own countrymen..." And there's work to rule when you don't respect your supervisor and he's some overlord.

I think construction jobs in Haiti might help drive the wages up in the DR for Dominicans. I hope so. The one critical comment I've heard about Haitian construction workers from a Spanish engineer in Puerto Plata was that they use all manual techniques, it's very labour-intensive and slow. It could take a long time to rebuild. Just imagine clearing the rubble (it took 9 months to clear ground 0) and sorting out the property titles etc.

[Blolover11]

I am a construction superintendent/manager currently working in Puert Rico. I am looking for a project in the Dr. Anyone with any leads. I am experienced in most fields.