[cindygirl]

Sunday was Vettel's 69th race in F1. His stats are as such:

16 wins
22 poles
6 FLs
27 podiums
1 championship

Schumacher after 69 races:

19 wins
10 poles
21 FL's
38 podiums
2 championships

Give or take a few things, both sets of stats are similar. I was personally surprised that Schumacher had amassed quite so many wins and podiums, but it includes 1994 and all but the final race of 1995. I would also add Vettel is probably racing against tougher opponents.

Concerning to think that Schumacher was 26 at his 69th race. Vettel is 23

[tarmpriopay]

Difficult to call both stats similar, when the differences are 100% or more.
But there is a trend developing.

[echocassidyde]

cue fousto and his tad rant...

[tarmpriopay]

cue fousto and his tad rant...

[9wQlZkIj]

Difficult to call both stats similar, when the differences are 100% or more.
But there is a trend developing.

Really all we can count that is 100% or greater is titles, which MS obviously wins. But I can't say it's fair to even count fastest laps, as they no longer pay points. MS had incentive back in the day to get fastest lap, in todays F1 is just means you get fastest lap and no points.

IMO poles, fastest laps, laps led, etc don't amount to much. They are great for records, but don't always reflect on the title standings. A pole without a podium or win < a bad start, no fast lap and a podium finish.

[12ZHeWZa]

Really all we can count that is 100% or greater is titles, which MS obviously wins. But I can't say it's fair to even count fastest laps, as they no longer pay points. MS had incentive back in the day to get fastest lap, in todays F1 is just means you get fastest lap and no points.

Is this true? I don't recall points being awarded for either the fastest lap or the pole position in my lifetime.
Something tells me that points have never been awarded for pole, and were last awarded for the fastest lap either in 1959 or 1960. I think I remember reading that Jack Brabham had been awarded a point for the fastest lap in a championship year and 1966 seems too late.

[9wQlZkIj]

Is this true? I don't recall points being awarded for either the fastest lap or the pole position in my lifetime.
Something tells me that points have never been awarded for pole, and were last awarded for the fastest lap either in 1959 or 1960. I think I remember reading that Jack Brabham had been awarded a point for the fastest lap in a championship year and 1966 seems too late.

Excellent case of brain fade on my part, and I stand corrected.

But I maintain that records are good to have, but title standings and championships are the ones that really matter.

[13spebampiliece]

I think the interesting thing is the difference in conversions from pole to wins/podiums. Schumacher had only 10 poles yet had amassed 19 wins and 38 podiums. Vettel has converted 22 poles into 16 wins and 22 podiums. On face value that suggests that Schumi was more consistent and better at winning from further back on the grid. There are a lot of variables of course - rule changes, qualifying changes, reliability improvements etc - but I would think that Vettel has a chance to accumualte more stats than Schumi for the simple reason that he'll be competing in 25% more races per season than Schumi did for much of his career (16 races for Schumi versus 19 or 20 for Vettel).

[qd0vhq4f]

Very interesting! I am surprised that MS is more successful, honestly, maybe because he is older...

[NickGrass]

Interesting comparison. If Vettel stays at Reb Bull and they continue to be as good as they have been he should pass The Shoe as The Shoe went to Ferrari who were poor at the time and he had a "dry spell" for a few seasons.

Hawk has a point too. In the early days of his career The Shoe used to chase down wins from all over the grid, whereas Vettel has relied on poles to achieve his wins. Lets see what the future holds

[SusanSazzios]

Difficult to call both stats similar, when the differences are 100% or more.
But there is a trend developing.

yes... there is

[BPitt]

one thing new engine for qualifying new engine for race testing a fair bit
30 Aug 1992 MS fist win had 17 races
Benetton-Ford Nelson Piquet won a race in 1991

vettel 22 races brfore first win in a 2 year old team

[Texdolley]

Difficult to call both stats similar, when the differences are 100% or more.
But there is a trend developing.

Indeed. Though I still reckon Hamilton would put him to bed from on all out pace if they were in the same team. I think that Vettel is probably the smarter driver at the moment though.

Actually, this whole Vettel Vs Hamilton and who is better is something that has been rattling my brains but I just have that feeling that Lewis would be the faster driver were they in the same team. I'd honestly love to see them in the same car. Sometimes I think Vettel is faster, other times I think it's Lewis that is faster.

That aside, the Shoe may be ahead on current stats, but I doubt Vettel will dominate for years as the Shoe did.

[Texdolley]

I think the interesting thing is the difference in conversions from pole to wins/podiums. Schumacher had only 10 poles yet had amassed 19 wins and 38 podiums. Vettel has converted 22 poles into 16 wins and 22 podiums. On face value that suggests that Schumi was more consistent and better at winning from further back on the grid. There are a lot of variables of course - rule changes, qualifying changes, reliability improvements etc - but I would think that Vettel has a chance to accumualte more stats than Schumi for the simple reason that he'll be competing in 25% more races per season than Schumi did for much of his career (16 races for Schumi versus 19 or 20 for Vettel).

Good post. I agree, Vettel has the ability to amass better stats. So does Lewis, but I doubt he'll manage that whilst at McLaren. The best way to look at it is probably as a % of races completed.

Anyway, Vettel has nearly alway won from the front. I'd like to see him qualify 4th or 5th and win from there for once. Can anyone think of a race where he has won and not qualified on the first row of the grid? I'd like to see him do this because it's the one thing stopping me from putting him on the level of Alonso and Hamilton in my books. Vettel doesn't excite me because he wins from the front. Alonso and Hamilton have both proved they can win from behind. I'd like to see Vettel do the same and do so a few times.

[12ZHeWZa]

Schumacher won the majority of his titles against opposition which contained few previous World Champions. Apart from Villeneuve and Hakkinen, I don't think that any previous world Champion competed in a season which Schumacher won.
(do you include Senna in that list and Mansell who didn't have a full-time drive?)


Vettel has won his only championship thus far against fields which have contained Alonso, Hamilton, Button and Schumacher. Arguably Vettel has faced a higher average quality of driver and has still won.

[Texdolley]

Schumacher won the majority of his titles against opposition which contained few previous World Champions. Apart from Villeneuve and Hakkinen, I don't think that any previous world Champion competed in a season which Schumacher won.
(do you include Senna in that list and Mansell who didn't have a full-time drive?)


Vettel has won his only championship thus far against fields which have contained Alonso, Hamilton, Button and Schumacher. Arguably Vettel has faced a higher average quality of driver and has still won.

World Champion's the Shoe competed against: Prost, Senna, Mansell, Hill, Villeneuve, Haikkonen, Raikkonen, Alonso. Whether they were previous world champions or not is pretty much a mute point. If the shoe hadn't won his 7 title we could potentially have 4 or 5 different world champions. They weren't world champion's while Schumacher was around, except Alonso, because he kept beating them.

[cindygirl]

The reason no one recalls any races where Vettel has really had to fight for victory when he's been behind is because they don't exist. All but two of Vettel's victory come from pole position, where he has lead going into T1, and gone on to coast to victory. The only races this wasn't the case was Abu Dhabi in 2009, where Lewis got pole but had brake problems in the race and eventually retired, and Barcelona this year, when Alonso jumped him at the start.

When he has had to fight from further back, or in slightly inferior equipment, to say he has fallen flat on his face would be harsh, however he has not shown to be great, clumsy would sum it up quite well I think. Similar in that respect, to Felipe Massa. This season he hasn't put himself in a position where he has had to fight from further back than the first row, so we can't criticise him for that, however as you say.... he is very much unproven.

[13spebampiliece]

The reason no one recalls any races where Vettel has really had to fight for victory when he's been behind is because they don't exist. All but two of Vettel's victory come from pole position, where he has lead going into T1, and gone on to coast to victory. The only races this wasn't the case was Abu Dhabi in 2009, where Lewis got pole but had brake problems in the race and eventually retired, and Barcelona this year, when Alonso jumped him at the start.

When he has had to fight from further back, or in slightly inferior equipment, to say he has fallen flat on his face would be harsh, however he has not shown to be great, clumsy would sum it up quite well I think. Similar in that respect, to Felipe Massa. This season he hasn't put himself in a position where he has had to fight from further back than the first row, so we can't criticise him for that, however as you say.... he is very much unproven.

The Massa comparison is interesting and I tend to agree with it. Massa was virtually unbeatable from pole a couple of seasons ago but rarely threatened from further back on the grid. Having said that I think Vettel is better than Massa ever was.

[yahyynzer]

The reason no one recalls any races where Vettel has really had to fight for victory when he's been behind is because they don't exist. All but two of Vettel's victory come from pole position, where he has lead going into T1, and gone on to coast to victory. The only races this wasn't the case was Abu Dhabi in 2009, where Lewis got pole but had brake problems in the race and eventually retired, and Barcelona this year, when Alonso jumped him at the start.

When he has had to fight from further back, or in slightly inferior equipment, to say he has fallen flat on his face would be harsh, however he has not shown to be great, clumsy would sum it up quite well I think. Similar in that respect, to Felipe Massa. This season he hasn't put himself in a position where he has had to fight from further back than the first row, so we can't criticise him for that, however as you say.... he is very much unproven.

I was thinking along similar lines.

Seb has the stats which cannot be denied but my opinion is that he is an exceptional driver in the right equipment. I think that if they were both in the same car, at the same point of their career, then the Shoe would dominate as would Hamilton or Alonso for that matter.

I think that when Ferrari and McLaren get on a level par, Seb will struggle.

[12ZHeWZa]

World Champion's the Shoe competed against: Prost, Senna, Mansell, Hill, Villeneuve, Haikkonen, Raikkonen, Alonso. Whether they were previous world champions or not is pretty much a mute point. If the shoe hadn't won his 7 title we could potentially have 4 or 5 different world champions. They weren't world champion's while Schumacher was around, except Alonso, because he kept beating them.

In 1994 Schumacher competed against only Senna and Mansell as previous world Champions (Hill would not be champion until 1996). Senna was only in 3 races and Mansell was only in 4.
In 1995 apart from Mansell who was only in 2 races, there were no previous world champions.
In 2000 Hill had retired, Villeneuve was in a rubbish car (and would continue to be in one until his career blew over) so the only previous World Champion with any ability to challenge against him was Hakkinen.
From 2001-2004 Schumacher had no real challenge from anyone who had been a previous World Champion at all.

Vettel won in 2010 with three previous World Champions and all of who were in moderately adequate cars. Schumacher might have been the best driver around, but comparitively his opposition was lesser.