[agildeta]

I see that almost everyone that has posted on this subject missed my point!
I admire Fred for the same reason I admire Lewis, Kimi, and Mike. I recognize the talent. Is Fred a better racer? The jury is still out. Fred has his flaws. He is not as smooth as Lewis, or Kimi. His style can be very destructive to tires given the proper set of circumstances. China 2006 is a good example. In changing conditions he wasn’t the only one to pit and keep his inter’s on in drying conditions. He did torture his much worse than others did and it cost him the race. I also agree with the distinction Wedge made in regaurd to Fred, and Mike.
Fred retiring Mike was never meant to be an empirical statement. It's a figure of speech albeit a flakey one, crude, and even rude. It is one that athletes understand. (Which makes me realize why I never should have brought it up here) If you don't get it, or like it, so be it. Mike had a streak of championships. While he was still competing it was taken away from him. My comment was in the context of every athlete that participates in an individual (that wasn’t killed while competing) sport is retired by someone. Off the top of my head I can think of only one exception, although I'm sure there are others.
Rocky Marciano, the only heavyweight champion to retire undefeated.
Why so serious fellas

[assohillA]

I see that almost everyone that has posted on this subject missed my point!
I admire Fred for the same reason I admire Lewis, Kimi, and Mike. I recognize the talent. Is Fred a better racer? The jury is still out. Fred has his flaws. He is not as smooth as Lewis, or Kimi. His style can be very destructive to tires given the proper set of circumstances. China 2006 is a good example. In changing conditions he wasn’t the only one to pit and keep his inter’s on in drying conditions. He did torture his much worse than others did and it cost him the race. I also agree with the distinction Wedge made in regaurd to Fred, and Mike.
Fred retiring Mike was never meant to be an empirical statement. It's a figure of speech albeit a flakey one, crude, and even rude. It is one that athletes understand. (Which makes me realize why I never should have brought it up here) If you don't get it, or like it, so be it. Mike had a streak of championships. While he was still competing it was taken away from him. My comment was in the context of every athlete that participates in an individual (that wasn’t killed while competing) sport is retired by someone. Off the top of my head I can think of only one exception, although I'm sure there are others.
Rocky Marciano, the only heavyweight champion to retire undefeated.
Why so serious fellas

I think that 'dethroned' is better terminology than 'retired'.

[luspikals]

I see that almost everyone that has posted on this subject missed my point!
I admire Fred for the same reason I admire Lewis, Kimi, and Mike. I recognize the talent. Is Fred a better racer? The jury is still out. Fred has his flaws. He is not as smooth as Lewis, or Kimi. His style can be very destructive to tires given the proper set of circumstances. China 2006 is a good example. In changing conditions he wasn’t the only one to pit and keep his inter’s on in drying conditions. He did torture his much worse than others did and it cost him the race. I also agree with the distinction Wedge made in regaurd to Fred, and Mike.

Lewis' style looks much more ragged than Alonso's. The reason Alonso and Renault lost China 2006 was because of a wrong tyre call, not Alonso having ripped them to shreds. Both Alonso and the Renault team admitted this tactical error after the race.

[agildeta]

Lewis' style looks much more ragged than Alonso's. The reason Alonso and Renault lost China 2006 was because of a wrong tyre call, not Alonso having ripped them to shreds. Both Alonso and the Renault team admitted this tactical error after the race.

That may well be, and easy to say in retrospect, but it was Freds style of throwing his fronts into the turns that did the damage. No one I've seen uses this same technique It is very obvious from the onboard camera!

[EntectCelpelm]

I see that almost everyone that has posted on this subject missed my point!
I admire Fred for the same reason I admire Lewis, Kimi, and Mike. I recognize the talent. Is Fred a better racer? The jury is still out. Fred has his flaws. He is not as smooth as Lewis, or Kimi. His style can be very destructive to tires given the proper set of circumstances. China 2006 is a good example. In changing conditions he wasn’t the only one to pit and keep his inter’s on in drying conditions. He did torture his much worse than others did and it cost him the race.

I disagree a bit there I think you under/over estimate Alonso a bit.

Lewis has a problem with temperament as a racer - for him its maximum attack and nothing else. Kimi likes to attack too.

Alonso is in the mould of Piquet. I'd say Piquet was far more aggressive than Prost. Even though Piquet was conservative and stole WDCs at the last race, Piquet would attack when he knew he had the car that could win the race eg. his epic battle with Alan Jones in Germany '81 or whenever it was.

China 2006 - that was one of the few races in the latter half of the year where Alonso could get the upper hand over the better Ferraris because a dry race at Suzuka would be advantage to Ferrari.

But Alonso is highly intelligent. Suzuka 2006 he decided to risk all out pressure on Schumi and it paid off (Schumi's Ferrari broke down) even though it was Alonso's to lose. At Brazil he settled for second, let Massa walk it and let Schumi do all the hard work.

I remember Turkey 2005 he saved his car for the end, pressured Montoya into a mistake and stole second place.

Another brilliant example of intelligence is Turkey 2006 - being chased hard by Schumi and in the inferior car, Alonso did all he could by altering the engine maps - full revs on the back straight, low revs on the twisty bits.

When it comes to pressure, Alonso is more Prost and Schumi is more Senna.

I can only think of Imola 2006 when he stalled and out-witted Alonso mid-race but Schumi's great drives have come from maximum attack - Hungary 1997 being 1 of many.

There's a canny brilliance which I find so fascinating and IMHO a natural successor to L'Professour.

[luspikals]

That may well be, and easy to say in retrospect, but it was Freds style of throwing his fronts into the turns that did the damage.

I have to respectfully disagree there.

No one I've seen uses this same technique It is very obvious from the onboard camera! True, but I've thought that the '06 Renault demanded that technique - I've read articles explaining that Alonso's method of maximum lock into the corner stopped the tyre graining on that Renault. Something to do with how its weight was distributed, and the characteristics of the Michelin tyres.

[agildeta]

True, but I've thought that the '06 Renault demanded that technique - I've read articles explaining that Alonso's method of maximum lock into the corner stopped the tyre graining on that Renault. Something to do with how its weight was distributed, and the characteristics of the Michelin tyres.

If that is true than I stand corrected. It certainly didn't apply to the inters' on a drying track, running two stints (which it shouldn't!) I never knew that about the characteristics of the '06 Renaut! on drys! Of course at my age I probably just forgot

[thushioli]

Lewis has a problem with temperament as a racer - for him its maximum attack and nothing else. Kimi likes to attack too.

While I agree to an extent about Lewis perhaps we should balance your view with one of his great strengths. He learns very quickly. We're talking about a driver who has only just completed his second season in F1 and he will only learn from experience as the years go on.

There's a canny brilliance which I find so fascinating and IMHO a natural successor to L'Professour.

Alonso has the benefit of 8 years experience in F1, and perhaps only he, above anyone else on the grid, could have made the most of the Renault this season. He is the most complete driver IMHO.

[VZF74G0M]

Alonso has the benefit of 8 years experience in F1, and perhaps only he, above anyone else on the grid, could have made the most of the Renault this season. He is the most complete driver IMHO.

I agree with this.

It's very subjective comparing one driver to another.

A dog-fight between Schumy at his peak Vs Alonso as he is at the moment? It's just gut feeling but I have to say Fred as I think he would handle a 1 on 1 pressure situation better.

[Thomas12400]

Deep down I don't think Hamilton is that bad either. Hell even Button can put in an occasional good drive on the day.

There, I almost said it...

Hugs and kisses all round (Love ya too knocks )

[VZF74G0M]

Deep down I don't think Hamilton is that bad either. Hell even Button can put in an occasional good drive on the day.

There, I almost said it...

Hugs and kisses all round (Love ya too knocks )

OK, Donks. I think that's quite enough of the Christmas Spirits for you.

Off to bed now lad and sleep it off.

[EntectCelpelm]

While I agree to an extent about Lewis perhaps we should balance your view with one of his great strengths. He learns very quickly. We're talking about a driver who has only just completed his second season in F1 and he will only learn from experience as the years go on.

Alonso has the benefit of 8 years experience in F1, and perhaps only he, above anyone else on the grid, could have made the most of the Renault this season. He is the most complete driver IMHO.

What makes you think he's a quick learner? If Lewis was a quick learner then he wouldn't have made as many mistakes this year. If Lewis was a quick learner then he wouldn't have been unhappy at finishing on the podium at Singapore.

Alonso showed his brilliance in 2005 because he knew when to attack and when to settle for a podium. At 23 Alonso was a complete driver, Lewis at 23 is only a step or two away. Had Alonso been in Lewis's position in '07 I think Alonso would've been WDC in his first year.

[Romarionsion]

What makes you think he's a quick learner? If Lewis was a quick learner then he wouldn't have made as many mistakes this year. If Lewis was a quick learner then he wouldn't have been unhappy at finishing on the podium at Singapore.

Alonso showed his brilliance in 2005 because he knew when to attack and when to settle for a podium. At 23 Alonso was a complete driver, Lewis at 23 is only a step or two away. Had Alonso been in Lewis's position in '07 I think Alonso would've been WDC in his first year.

Yes might have happened in 07 for Freddie in his first year----Frankly, had FA been in Lewis' position in 2007 as a defacto number one, he would have added a third consecutive WDC title, with just those extra points he lost in Hungary thanks to LH antics.........Kimi should be grateful to Lewis....and wo those antics, Freddie never would have gone crazy and bit the hand that was handing him all those stolen secrets from ferrari

And this talk about why MS retired, if there was any reason for it from a third party, that third party would have been Luca as shown by the behavior of everyone at Monza when it was announced, as I think that Luca had decided that sleepie Kimi was the future, and that Kimi would not be able to compete with MS on a team built by the MS legacy with huge loyalty to MS, no more than Freddie could surive at Mac, with LH and "his team"....indeed, Kimi might have had an out in his contract if MS did not retire....

And I do not care how good the driver is, read the discussions about how understeer can hamper one driver, yet enhance the spped of another driver, per the discussions on the thread about the ferrari engineer for Kimi and so forth....and when a team is setting the car up for such two different drivers and doing more understeer, then the other driver will suffer as a simple matter of fact....so what driver wants to be the number 2, when he thinks he is more than a capable number one????

Neither the threat of Freddie nor Kimi made MS retire, no more than the threat of HK winning two WDCs make him retire, or the threat of having to race Senna make MS decide to quit F1 in his early years

[thushioli]

What makes you think he's a quick learner? If Lewis was a quick learner then he wouldn't have made as many mistakes this year.

Experience inevitably brings lessons, and I do think Lewis is learning. That doesn't mean all mistakes will be eliminated, but the bottom line is he won the WDC, and having achieved that goal I think Lewis may be in less of a hurry, figuratively speaking, from now on.

Alonso showed his brilliance in 2005 because he knew when to attack and when to settle for a podium. At 23 Alonso was a complete driver, Lewis at 23 is only a step or two away. Had Alonso been in Lewis's position in '07 I think Alonso would've been WDC in his first year.

Very possibly. I'm not so sure about being a complete driver at 23, but he most certainly is the most complete driver today, and I think this year at Renault has contributed to that.

You're quite right. Fuji 2008 was a fantastic example of somebody who learns from their mistakes.

Oh, hold on.....

Please try and read before creating an argument for the hell of it Given that I've already said I agree somewhat with wedge that Lewis has a problem with temperament as a racer that should give you the clue that I don't think he is perfect.

And please don't say that Interlagos 08 proves he has learnt from Interlagos 07.

Interlagos 08 showed Hamilton learnt from Interlagos 07 because he approached the two races entirely differently, and the results were entirely different. Fuji may have been a factor in how he approached Interlagos as well.

Pick and chose whatever circumstances from the race you wish; the bottom line is the result.

Lewis is young, and has plenty of opportunities to learn from his mistakes, but all the evidence suggests that so far he hasn't.

The overall results say otherwise. That's not to say he will not gain more experience, and make errors, in the coming seasons, but he's not alone among the drivers in that.

[EntectCelpelm]

Interlagos 08 showed Hamilton learnt from Interlagos 07 because he approached the two races entirely differently, and the results were entirely different. Fuji may have been a factor in how he approached Interlagos as well.

That was partly down to team orders and the McLaren uncharacteristically not working well in damp conditions.

In Singapore he was told to hold onto 3rd and finished the race with a sulk.

As Tamburello said before, Lewis expects his natural talent to get him out of trouble. As much as I admire the Gilles Villenueve school of attacking driving it can only get you so far - Lewis lost and won WDC by the skin of his teeth.

[luspikals]

You're quite right. Fuji 2008 was a fantastic example of somebody who learns from their mistakes.

Oh, hold on.....

And please don't say that Interlagos 08 proves he has learnt from Interlagos 07. Without Glock losing 13 seconds in a lap, an extreme fluke of circumstance, he would have made a right balls up of it, as his mess up letting Vettel past showed he was more than capable of achieving.

Lewis is young, and has plenty of opportunities to learn from his mistakes, but all the evidence suggests that so far he hasn't.

When the car is strong and/or circumstances play well for him, he shows a level of talent rarely seen....but quite often he seems to think that his natural brilliance behind the wheel will amply make up for a lack of thought.

Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't.

Agreed.

[pupyississido]

If Alonso dethroned MS in 2005 and 2006 then MS kicked his butt big time in 2001, 2003, 2004....That makes it 3-2....

Not that I believe that logic anyway. Also it could very easily have been 4-1 had the Ferrari not given up on MS in both Jap and Brazil 2006....

Alonso also holds the unique distinction to having been beaten by a rookie...MS never ever lost to any of his team mates over the entire season...

[luspikals]

If Alonso dethroned MS in 2005 and 2006 then MS kicked his butt big time in 2001, 2003, 2004....That makes it 3-2....

Not that I believe that logic anyway. Also it could very easily have been 4-1 had the Ferrari not given up on MS in both Jap and Brazil 2006....

The Ferrari and the Renault were evenly matched in 2006, and Alonso came out on top. Might be hard for you to stomach, I know.

Alonso also holds the unique distinction to having been beaten by a rookie...MS never ever lost to any of his team mates over the entire season... "We were racing Fernando" - Ron Dennis.

[ultramDoctoo]

The Ferrari and the Renault were evenly matched in 2006, and Alonso came out on top. Might be hard for you to stomach, I know.



"We were racing Fernando" - Ron Dennis.

f1rocks is right. Schumi won every year for 16 years and broke all records that are classed as important in F1. He retired at 37 still competitive and nearly winning an 8th WDC. Schumi's last drive in Brazil was a fine example of the type of racer he was, brilliant...fast...committed...passionate...consis tent...a master class as we have never seen before. One day our kids will look at the F1 record books and see a certain MS dominating every record and they will say, "man, this Schumacher guy must have been brilliant".

And BTW, Frodo WAS beaten by a rookie,in the same team, in the same car. Not exactly something to be proud of.

[thushioli]

In Singapore he was told to hold onto 3rd and finished the race with a sulk.

Lewis Hamilton: "I didn't want to take chances - particularly as the Ferraris were outside the points." He may have had to curb his natural instincts given the championship situation, but curb them he did.

More evidence that he doesn't learn?