[Seasmillets]

I've been obviously following the exit of Honda with detail, and reading 'expert' analysis and also reading around the message boards, and seem to see a huge blame laid on Bernie and Max for ruining everything and being cause of putting F1 in a state where Honda have pulled out.

Personally, I cannot understand this “its Bernie and Max’s fault” idea everyone is giving.

From my perspective, its 95% the manufacturers faults. They entered F1 during a boom in the global economy, they were able to walk into F1, and pour what was to them relatively small amounts of cash, and be best funded team on the grid. As more and more manufacturers joined, the cost escalated. The manufacturers have been responsible for bringing the costs up by such a huge amount.

I remember Max and Bernie saying years ago when manufacturers were pouring into F1 that it was unsustainable for Formula 1 to relay heavily on them, as manufacturers see F1 as a business opportunity, nothing else. Max has been active and upfront about the need to cut costs, but obviously with manufacturers having biggest budgets, they have dragged their heals in doing this, as it would give independent competitors a more equal playing field.

In many ways, its highly ironic that one of the first victims of the credit crunch is one of the main culprits to making F1 economically unsustainable in the first place.

I’m a realist, so I’m not going to say Bernie and Max are cleaner than white, both, in particular Max, have messed up. With the rule changes, intended to decrease costs have in reality brought up costs, and introduction of KERS etc, its clearly not best timing.

But their line of thought has been correct. With Bernie, many have a go at him for hogging all the money F1 makes. Well I’m afraid he fully entitled to do that. CVC own 70% of Formula 1, Bernie only owns 10%, but is spokesman for CVC. CVC and their shareholders paid billions of pounds for F1, its Bernie job to make sure the shareholders get a good return on their investment. Why should CVC pay billions for F1, only for the profits to be given to someone else?

All the teams currently in F1 entered Formula 1 knowing the financial set up, now we’re hitting tough times, they want to be bailed out by more profits from F1. I just don’t think its right. At best, it would only be a short term solution, it wouldn’t be a good incentive to reduce costs if they’re bailed out, I say leave them struggle, they’ll be forced to cut costs, and it will be better for F1 in the long term.

I just don't see how people can lay the blame primarily at Max and Bernie, surely the blame should be laid towards the manufacturers, who have purposely and knowingly brought the budgets up to current levels, compared to lets say Max, who has fought for years and years to bring the costs down, however, in instances has by mistake brought costs up slightly.

So I was just wondering, how do people justify it being primarily Max and Bernie faults for high costs of F1 which has led to exit of Honda?

I'm not saying your all wrong, maybe I've forgotten about certain parts, I just want to understand the majority view.

[Si8jy8HN]

I've seen Ron Dennis blamed because his team raised the stakes with use of carbonfibre on the first MP4

Bottom line is that it's the economic situation to "blame". We know the manufacturers come and go, and right now Honda have decided they cannot justify spending any more. Jaguar made a similar decision for similar reasons in different times.

We can blame the tv deals Bernie made 30yrs ago which began a "boom" time for F1. More money came into the sport because it was reaching so many more people, and money follows money.

We can blame all the sponsors, particularly tobacco, who were clamouring to have their names all over the cars, and were happy to pay a fortune for that.

We can blame the manufacturers who have willingly spent a fortune to enhance their brands and chase that win in F1 which is great when used to promote their latest model.

We can blame the FIA who have constantly tinkered with the rules, adding cost for the teams.

We can blame anyone we like, but the fact is there is less money available to teams, sponsors, and manufacturers.

[Broorbbub]

Look!! their sales plummeted, the shareholders got angry, they had to fire staff, and the board had no alternative. Am I that far wrong?

[Immampdah]

Personally, I cannot understand this “its Bernie and Max’s fault” idea everyone is giving.

Try harder.

[Immampdah]

Look!! their sales plummeted, the shareholders got angry, they had to fire staff, and the board had no alternative. Am I that far wrong?

Not at all.

[Caliwany]

Look!! their sales plummeted, the shareholders got angry, they had to fire staff, and the board had no alternative. Am I that far wrong?

Exactly. It's the team reason Renault left in the 1990's. The same reason Ford (as Jaugar) left and Citroen quit the WRC, (then came back again a year later)

[AndyScouchek]

I blame the manufacturers. They can come and go as they please.

It was going to happen sooner or later.

Manufacturers came in thinking they could buy success but the constructors are organic institutions, built from nothing. That's why independents are the blood of motorsport

[Seasmillets]

Try harder.

A typical post from Ioan, 'try harder' has absolute no purpose whatsoever, why bother even posting it?

I've been reasonable, in giving my opinion, and asking for the "bernie and max are satan" crew to just justify their view points. And I ain't seen anyone manage to justify their reasoning behind that, apart from V12, who I have replied to and awaiting response.

To me, a post of "try harder" just tells me you've no foundations behind your beliefs, other than listening to others who have based their claims on unfounded facts.

[hitaEtela]

I blame the manufacturers. They can come and go as they please.

It was going to happen sooner or later.

Manufacturers came in thinking they could buy success but the constructors are organic institutions, built from nothing. That's why independents are the blood of motorsport

What's wrong with that.

The manufacturers are not betrothed to F1 but use it as a show case for their expertise. F1 is a business now and no business can afford to bankrupt itself.

There is 1 team out there that exists to race and that's Williams but they are in danger of being priced out of the sport.

Ferrari sell cars to race and may leave F1 in the future if they are not allowed to showcase their technology or their shareholders pull the plug.

McLaren have become more of a brand than a pure race team but could possibly leave F1 if the return wasn't worth it or their shareholders pull the plug.

There 3 teams are the modern heart of Formula 1 and none of them can you put your hand on your heart and say they will be in F1 in 3 years with the way it's going.

So, who is to blame?

The current economic situation is not the cause of the problems in F1. The teams, whether independence or manufacturers, develop to the extent they are allowed. Exotic materials, Mega computer systems and incredibly expensive wind tunnels. The possibilities were only constrained by their sponsors pockets and the glamour of F1 meant those pockets stretched quite deep indeed. Like alcoholics in a brewery, they gorged to gay abandon but eventually the piper needs paying.

I think it's pretty obvious that to succeed under the rules, the teams had to spend obscene amounts of money. Every year, the stakes raised higher and higher. The FIA are stewards of the sport and must put their hands up.

So, now, where are we and where will F1 be in the future?

We have lost independant teams like Arrows, Minardi, Jordan etc because of the past. It now needs to stop. It's time for a cull to restore the racing series F1 used to be and it's not that hard.

Standardise the rules, not the engines and gearboxes. Get the sport back to what the fans want and if you don't know what that is, look at the threads on here. TC, LC, ABS, CFD etc. Get rid of it.

Standardise the aero's, limit the RPM and let's get back to racing.

[Immampdah]

A typical post from Ioan, 'try harder' has absolute no purpose whatsoever, why bother even posting it?

Really? "Try harder" has no purpose whatsoever? It has the purpose to make try to see the other side of your reality too. But hey, it's easier to dismiss it.

As for answering your question, there are already pages of replies about it.

[Seasmillets]

Really? "Try harder" has no purpose whatsoever? It has the purpose to make try to see the other side of your reality too. But hey, it's easier to dismiss it.

As for answering your question, there are already pages of replies about it.

Well, surely me creating a topic is trying to understand the other perspective, for people to then not be able to justify their reasoning behind it by just saying "try harder"......hypocritic strings to mind.

And whilst there is many topics about the current state of F1, with many laying into Bernie and Max as the main people responsible, I ain't seen any justification.....hence I created this topic, not to tell people they're wrong, but to be open minded and try understand a different view point to mine, even if I might ultimately disagree.

[Seasmillets]

What's wrong with that.

The manufacturers are not betrothed to F1 but use it as a show case for their expertise. F1 is a business now and no business can afford to bankrupt itself.

There is 1 team out there that exists to race and that's Williams but they are in danger of being priced out of the sport.

Ferrari sell cars to race and may leave F1 in the future if they are not allowed to showcase their technology or their shareholders pull the plug.

McLaren have become more of a brand than a pure race team but could possibly leave F1 if the return wasn't worth it or their shareholders pull the plug.

There 3 teams are the modern heart of Formula 1 and none of them can you put your hand on your heart and say they will be in F1 in 3 years with the way it's going.

So, who is to blame?

The current economic situation is not the cause of the problems in F1. The teams, whether independence or manufacturers, develop to the extent they are allowed. Exotic materials, Mega computer systems and incredibly expensive wind tunnels. The possibilities were only constrained by their sponsors pockets and the glamour of F1 meant those pockets stretched quite deep indeed. Like alcoholics in a brewery, they gorged to gay abandon but eventually the piper needs paying.

I think it's pretty obvious that to succeed under the rules, the teams had to spend obscene amounts of money. Every year, the stakes raised higher and higher. The FIA are stewards of the sport and must put their hands up.

So, now, where are we and where will F1 be in the future?

We have lost independant teams like Arrows, Minardi, Jordan etc because of the past. It now needs to stop. It's time for a cull to restore the racing series F1 used to be and it's not that hard.

Standardise the rules, not the engines and gearboxes. Get the sport back to what the fans want and if you don't know what that is, look at the threads on here. TC, LC, ABS, CFD etc. Get rid of it.

Standardise the aero's, limit the RPM and let's get back to racing.

I don't quite agree here Knock On. But firstly I must ask what you mean by 'standardise the rules'?

Secondly, from what I can recall, since I been watching F1, any rule changes have had the heart in the right place, to improve safety and reduce costs.

When you say less rules, I have to disagree, I think if the teams had less regulations, the cars would be much much faster, therefore more dangerous, and the gap between slowest and fastest would be much greater, making it pointless for the lower end teams to compete.


Whilst the FIA and Bernie aren't whiter than white in their approach, I'd lay the blame at the hands of the manufacturers.

Thats said, a case could be said that short of banning full manufacturer teams, or budget caps, there isn't much which could have been done.

[hitaEtela]

I don't quite agree here Knock On. But firstly I must ask what you mean by 'standardise the rules'?

Secondly, from what I can recall, since I been watching F1, any rule changes have had the heart in the right place, to improve safety and reduce costs.

When you say less rules, I have to disagree, I think if the teams had less regulations, the cars would be much much faster, therefore more dangerous, and the gap between slowest and fastest would be much greater, making it pointless for the lower end teams to compete.


Whilst the FIA and Bernie aren't whiter than white in their approach, I'd lay the blame at the hands of the manufacturers.

Thats said, a case could be said that short of banning full manufacturer teams, or budget caps, there isn't much which could have been done.

You know what PP. Sometimes I agree with you, sometimes I disagree. However, I always respect your opinion as you're a knowledgeable and courteous poster.

OK, Standardise may be the wrong word. Perhaps I should have said to make them clearer and without the ambiguity.

Don't get me wrong. I appreciate development and innovation but the FIA seems to use this ambiguity to it's advantage rather than the innovators.

There should be fairness, transparency and stability.

Second. There have been rule changes that have increased safety. Max has done a good job on this as I have acknowledged previously. OK, some bits need rethinking such as the endless tarmac runoffs with no penalty (unless you're a McLaren ) but in the main, they have been positive.

However, there have been a lot of changes that just seem knee jerk and have disadvantaged the smaller teams.

To name a few.

KERS
Grooved Tyres (in fact, slick to groove to slick)
3.0 V10 to 2.4 V8
Engine to last 1 full race weekend, then 2, then 3
Same with transmission but needs to last 4 races

All of these things required large amounts of redevelopment budget that drained resources from other areas. OK with the big teams but it's killing / has killed the smaller ones.

They have done some good such as banning exotic materials but come on. Billions have gone down the swanny because of the FIA and their knee jerk rule changes.

The rest I can agree with you on. The manufacturers have been gratuitously frivolous with their budget. They have tried to "out do the Jones's", spent small fortunes, been allowed to get away with it and what has been the result. Better racing? I don't think so.

So, perhaps it's time to listen to the fans a bit.

[AngelinaTheElf]

Car manufacturers can always withdraw from F1, because it is not their core business. Contrast that with Williams Grand Prix Engineering (notice the name) and you can see the difference.
F1 has to structure its operations so that it does not rely on the presence of auto manufacturers. If it does not do this, there is a virtual certainty of a "boom to bust" event as manufacturers leave one after another, with teams being sold for nothing, many thousands of jobs being lost, marketing budgets disappearing, and F1 being seen as a dying sport.
The FIA standard engine, unpalatable though it may be for the technology purists, may be a key element of a solution.

[Ekzamenov]

We can blame all the sponsors, particularly tobacco, who were clamouring to have their names all over the cars, and were happy to pay a fortune for that.

You could blame the EU for banning tobacco sponsorship and leaving a void in the sponsorship market for teams.

[quorceopporce]

You could blame the EU for banning tobacco sponsorship and leaving a void in the sponsorship market for teams.

You could, but I think it was a step that needed taking, and there is no good reason for F1 having been so dependent on one particular type of sponsor. If it is such an excellent draw for backers as those in charge of the sport would like to think it is, F1 ought not to have been affected too badly by the ban.

[Duaceanceksm]

The thing I find amusing is that people around here were all for the manufacturer owned and run GPWC.

What would have happened to a series where it's not just a participant leaving but an organiser, administrator and rule maker leaving?

[quorceopporce]

The thing I find amusing is that people around here were all for the manufacturer owned and run GPWC.

What would have happened to a series where it's not just a participant leaving but an organiser, administrator and rule maker leaving?

Despite the legitimate criticism of Bernie and the FIA, quite how the GPWC would have ended up being a stable series in terms of manufacturer involvement I don't understand. Would it somehow have been immune from wider commercial pressures? Clearly, the answer is 'no'.

[AndyScouchek]

What's wrong with that.

The manufacturers are not betrothed to F1 but use it as a show case for their expertise. F1 is a business now and no business can afford to bankrupt itself.

There is 1 team out there that exists to race and that's Williams but they are in danger of being priced out of the sport.

Ferrari sell cars to race and may leave F1 in the future if they are not allowed to showcase their technology or their shareholders pull the plug.

McLaren have become more of a brand than a pure race team but could possibly leave F1 if the return wasn't worth it or their shareholders pull the plug.

There 3 teams are the modern heart of Formula 1 and none of them can you put your hand on your heart and say they will be in F1 in 3 years with the way it's going.

So, who is to blame?

The current economic situation is not the cause of the problems in F1. The teams, whether independence or manufacturers, develop to the extent they are allowed. Exotic materials, Mega computer systems and incredibly expensive wind tunnels. The possibilities were only constrained by their sponsors pockets and the glamour of F1 meant those pockets stretched quite deep indeed. Like alcoholics in a brewery, they gorged to gay abandon but eventually the piper needs paying.

I think it's pretty obvious that to succeed under the rules, the teams had to spend obscene amounts of money. Every year, the stakes raised higher and higher. The FIA are stewards of the sport and must put their hands up.

So, now, where are we and where will F1 be in the future?

We have lost independant teams like Arrows, Minardi, Jordan etc because of the past. It now needs to stop. It's time for a cull to restore the racing series F1 used to be and it's not that hard.

Standardise the rules, not the engines and gearboxes. Get the sport back to what the fans want and if you don't know what that is, look at the threads on here. TC, LC, ABS, CFD etc. Get rid of it.

Standardise the aero's, limit the RPM and let's get back to racing.

Independent teams more likely to work within their means whereas manufacturer teams less so.

Independent team can evolve with various engine supply deals whereas manufacturers are answerable to powers above them such as shareholders.

Manufacturers pull out whenever they like, independents end up picking up the pieces.

[lasadeykar]

In this economy, I like the standard engine package. I suspect we'll see ferrari build their own engines, and possibly mercedes. I believe they should also allow the customer cars. let a company like mcLaren or Ferrari that may still have the resources and facilities to manufature a run of customer cars do so for anyone that wants one. Bring back the spirit of the 70's F1. A grid full of cosworth marches with a mix of cosworth powered independent chassis and a handful of teams making their own engines like Ferrari. I welcome a return to a grid of more independent teams. It doesn't have to be a spec series just because the engine is standardized and aero regulations are much tighter. I think we may see a far more competetive grid with the potential to let the true driving talent shine in the next couple of seasons.