[quorceopporce]

F1 is finished if they go ahead with this solution. As many have said. It will surely mean the end for Mercedes, BMW, Toyota, Renault and possibly Ferrari, who have already threatened to leave the sport.

But none of those teams would have to go down the 'standard' engine route.

[agildeta]

F1 is finished if they go ahead with this solution. As many have said. It will surely mean the end for Mercedes, BMW, Toyota, Renault and possibly Ferrari, who have already threatened to leave the sport.

This is like watching a slow agonizing death for the sport. My only hope is that they all pull out and form their own racing series. It might not be called F1, but we will surely know it as the pinnacle of motorsports.

F1 had a solid 70 year run and now like relics of the past will fade away. Sadly not by the evolutuion of sports/entertainment but by the greed and absurdity of 2 men. one blinded by greed, the other deranged by his own dellusions of granduer.

As I said I don't mind the sport going on hiatus for 1-2 years as these teams figure out a new league and decent regulations. Deep down I got to beleive that McLaren, Ferrari, BMW, Williams, Renault and RBR are far from pleased with the state of affairs and have just about had it with the whole circus.

T.F. I respect your insight here! However, how can you blame Max and Bernie
for the loss of the most lucrative cash influx in F1 evaporating?

Of course I'm referring to tobacco advertising. I do agree it is a slow and agonizing death.
Bernie is running out of Kingdoms that allow tobacco advertisement in any form. And accept it as a choice
IMO a very bad choice. But Cigaretts never did anything for me( with the exception of providing financing for the sport I treasure. I think all the cars should be required to advertise in bold graphics
If you want to risk a short and lethargic life ending prematurely in heart attack, stroke, or cancer SMOKE _______________Brand!

[Immampdah]

If max gives up also on imposing a standard gearbox than it's OK.

I suppose that they will all have time to develop the engines along with Cosworth and than will come the specification freeze.

The part with the gearbox is however a bit complicated because along with the engine the gearbox is a stressed part of the chassis and thus plays a huge role in designing the car.
I don't see the manufacturers buy into this either.

Having cheap engines and gearboxes for the privateers is excellent, but let the once who think they can do it themselves to go ahead as they wish.

[quorceopporce]

Having cheap engines and gearboxes for the privateers is excellent, but let the once who think they can do it themselves to go ahead as they wish.

Within cost restrictions, surely?

[irrascaft]

Within cost restrictions, surely?

I don't see why. I think the purpose of any "cost cutting" should be reducing the cost required to compete, which this low-budget Cosworth would do. Trying to reduce the cost required to win - no doubt the stated aim of Max's original "standard engine", is more pointless than p*ssing into the wind. You'll always have your haves and have-nots in any area of life, and F1 is no exception.

[quorceopporce]

I don't see why. I think the purpose of any "cost cutting" should be reducing the cost required to compete, which this low-budget Cosworth would do. Trying to reduce the cost required to win - no doubt the stated aim of Max's original "standard engine", is more pointless than p*ssing into the wind. You'll always have your haves and have-nots in any area of life, and F1 is no exception.

I agree with your last sentence, but if the overall result is to create a more 'sustainable' F1, at the moment there is a need for costs to be reduced. As I said, the Cosworth engine would be all very well for new entrants, but where do they go from there without spending pots more cash? Then, when the next big economic downturn hits, the sport will end up in the same downward spiral because costs have risen too much.

[irrascaft]

I agree with your last sentence, but if the overall result is to create a more 'sustainable' F1, at the moment there is a need for costs to be reduced. As I said, the Cosworth engine would be all very well for new entrants, but where do they go from there without spending pots more cash? Then, when the next big economic downturn hits, the sport will end up in the same downward spiral because costs have risen too much.

Well if they don't have the big pots of cash to spend, then they'd continue using the Cosworth, and likely continue to reside in the bottom half of the field, is the harsh reality of the situation. Then as big-spending manufacturers/drinks companies/Indian billionaires (delete as appropriate) get bored/decide to invest elsewhere/realise they can't afford it anymore (delete as appropriate), then these private teams using the stock engine will by definition get further towards the front.

I admit it does risk creating a two-tier F1, but I'd find that situation, with 24 cars, infinitely more preferable to the spectre of fields of 18 and possibly less that we are currently faced with. I would also prefer it to a field of 24 evenly-matched cars with common components, I guess that's just the purist in me talking.

When I first started watching F1, that's kind of what we had. The top teams with huge tobacco sponsorship and/or a competitive works engine deal, with the bottom half of the field using customer Cosworth or Judd engines, sprinkled with a few uncompetitive "works" engines e.g. Lamborghini.

And I for one loved it, even if we had some teams 4 or 5 seconds off the pace and the same few teams winning races. Because despite this year's field being one of the closest ever in terms of time differential, what do we have? Yep, the same few teams winning races. What would we have with a few free-spending top teams supplemented by a gaggle of smaller outfits using a standard Cosworth engines? The same few teams winning races.

I think we've been a bit spoiled by the "closeness" of F1 this year due to the presence of 8 wealthy manufactuers/drinks/companies/Indian billionaires all pumping money into their team(s), with the other team, a multiple title winning independent reduced to a near backmarker as a result of this. Force India are currently regarded as F1's "worst" team, but the margin they are off the ultimate pace by would have seen them as a regular contender for points in the 90's. THIS is unsustainable.

They could even make any private teams (and their drivers) using the Cosworth eligible for a little sub-championship, much like the Clark/Chapman cups for normally-aspirated cars in 1987. I know it only lasted one year, but the FIA assumed that equalisation measures would make N/As competitive with the turbos for 1988...what happened? McLaren-Honda (turbo) won 15 races that year, with Ferrari (also turbo) fluking the other one. Moral of the story: equalisation never works as intended! And of course for 1989, turbos were banned.

In fact they could open up the whole "standard engine" idea to multiple independent engine manufacturers, e.g. Cosworth, Judd, Ilmor, AER, Mecachrome etc. whereby they agree to supply a private F1 team with an engine to within a certain price cap. That might kill the whole economy-of-scale argument that is help driving the cost of the Cosworth proposal down, and I could live without that, but an idea might be to make these engines eligible for GP2 (or even Max's new F2!), with the dual benefit of making GP2/F2 multi-make while increasing their customer base.

Or in fact they could keep GP2 single-engine (not what I'd prefer, but no loss on what we currently have), AND make these engines F1-eligible and supplied to the "second-division" F1 teams...saving costs even further!

Sorry for the long post kinda went off on a whole thinking-out-loud trip, with some suggestions that may not be practical, but I think that's what the FIA and teams need to do, some real thinking outside of the box that may see them stumble on a great idea, rather than driving the old tired mantra of equalisation, standardisation and spec-ing equipment, which may saves costs but IMO flies right in the face of motor racing's ethos.

[Overlord]

Ferrari-Cosworth doesn't really have much of a ring to it though......

Nor does BMW-Cosworth, Toyota-Cosworth, Ferrari-Cosworth, Renault-Cosworth, or even McLaren-Cosworth. And why would any manufacturer make their own engine if it cannot exceed the Cosworth's specs? Kiss F1 good-bye, boys...

BTW, Ferrari will be fine supplying spec F2 cars.

[HawksBurnDown]

But who is to say that Cosworth couldn't develop that engine into the best on the grid? I could see those teams who don't want to run a standard engine being up in arms, and quite rightly.

The equalisation idea is absolutely absurd and has no place in F1.

We're past the time of ideals. I agree that equalisation shouldn't have a place in F1, but F1 needs the Cosworth option and it needs to be competitive.

What I read was that the deadline for signing up for 2010 was 11th December 2008. That's absurd - it gave the teams a week to decide what they were going to do. I wouldn't be surprised if none go for it because Max made it impossible for them to decide like that.

[tLO0hFNy]

I'm torn. Frankly I think it's all BravoSierra.... But costs are out of hand (due to inconsistent rules). This all happened before, were not 9 out of 13 teams in the 70's running the Cosworth/Ford DFV.

Max worded his letter like a good attorney would. "if they choose" "have option to" This allows Ferrari to cast, manufacture and machine their own engine. Granted a spec. transmission is required (why after billions have been spent on DSG, they will be on a shelf.....) Further Max's plan for Cosworth states nothing about KERS. Bueller???

[DfrtYhyu]

I'm torn. Frankly I think it's all BravoSierra....

Sierra. They're talking about running Sierra engines

Well, I've got a sweet little old 205 pinto in my Super 7. Could this herald the return of Team Knock-on into F1

[Breilopmil]

Sierra. They're talking about running Sierra engines

Well, I've got a sweet little old 205 pinto in my Super 7. Could this herald the return of Team Knock-on into F1

At least there shouldn't be too much trouble making them last three Grand Prix weekends

[DfrtYhyu]

At least there shouldn't be too much trouble making them last three Grand Prix weekends

After I've fitted it with a turbo, nitrous and hidden them under a red prancing horse paint scheme, I wouldn't be so sure

[tLO0hFNy]

BravoSierra=BullSh*t

f1 w/spec motors

[bribiaLaubysdggf]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/72413

Williams, Force India, Red Bull, STR and... Renault seem interested. Maybe a Renault-Cosworth wasn't too far fetched after all!

The good/bad news therefore is that this cheap engine supply looks to be a reality.

[vSzsgifP]

Didn't almost everyone run around with Cosworth DFVs for god knows how many years? Is the only difference between then and now that the idea is being forced on people rather than it being available for anyone who wants it?

[Heacechig]

I have noticed that a lot of parallels have been drawn between 70's and nowadays, a'la "back then almost everyone was running with Cossies, why not now?" Back then basically everyone except for Ferrari were private teams, if F1 can reach a similar situation in the next few years again, then a "standard Cosworth" sounds more logical.

As for equalizing, this continually sounds strange in a progressive series like F1. And FIA will be very strict in imposing this, because Cosworth should be currently a private engine manufacturer and I doubt they would be ready to compete against the development pace of car manufacturers (even during 2006 Cosworth's performance during the season dropped significantly compared to others). However, considering that even under the 'freeze' conditions engines are arguably still being developed (hence Renault's complaints for lack of power for example), then I wonder, which means will FIA implement to avoid any engine improvements to avoid Cosworth dropping behind others.

[quorceopporce]

Didn't almost everyone run around with Cosworth DFVs for god knows how many years? Is the only difference between then and now that the idea is being forced on people rather than it being available for anyone who wants it?

And the fact that F1 now views itself as being beyond such things.

[Pelefaifs]

Didn't almost everyone run around with Cosworth DFVs for god knows how many years? Is the only difference between then and now that the idea is being forced on people rather than it being available for anyone who wants it?

Cossies were used because they were the best option , fast and reliable .
People ran them because they wanted to .

Renault and Flavio are only agreeing to this because they don't see a point in putting money into developing an engine that will have an imposed limit .
Why bother competing in a non-competition ?

Power should be open . It should not be regulated .
At most , a rev limit should be imposed .

I'm sure , in the day , there were many a Ferrari mechanic that secretly wished his team had a DFV , not that they ever would admit it . It's just not worth the horses head at the foot of the bed .