[poekfpojoibien]

At this time of suffering, loss of lives and dismay in Haiti's capital, this may certainly be a thread who's mere existence may be challenged by a wide variety of perceptions of political correctness.
Still, I am sure, I am not the only one asking myself what the social, demographic, financial and even political impact of this disaster may turn out to be on the Dominican Republic (?).

Now that our attention has been so brutally directed onto Haiti and more specifically it's capital city, Port Au Prince and the dreadful conditions even on "T minus 1", and then on the horrors of the situation of today, I believe that what we are learning only little by little may not only be appalling and disturbing, but may eventually turn out to become of direct concern to the Dominican Republic.

• When only 7 year ago, the official census declared a little over 700 thousand residents in Port Au Prince, news agencies seem now to suggest a population of around 3 Millions! 200 to 300 thousand just in ONE one-by-one mile "barrio" (Cite Soleil) alone!
• The city is overtaken in size by "barrios" said to be more populated and even more dangerous than even Sao Paulo's and Rio's "favelas"!
• Help organizations lament the total lack of most basic infrastructure, like only road ways, power, water, sewer, short EVERYTHING at T-1. Some "barrios" don't even have businesses like colmados anymore because of the the lack of basic services and crime. Of the little there ever was in some few select neighborhoods, it is feared none may be left salvageable either now.
• 80% of Haitians live under the poverty line, over 50% below the worst poverty.... that's a NATION wide AVERAGE! The data released only now would suggest that the bulk of the later 50% live in a city like Port Au Prince... so, the numbers will be worse there.

The list of sad and deplorable data could probably go on and on. A country which by all means can be labeled a failed state, has virtually LOST it capital and thus ability to be governed and helped from within.

I think that, with this time, really, but REALLY nothing to look back upon, many residents of Port Au Prince will quite naturally find nothing holding them back from leaving the city and most likely a good portion of these, the country. Easiest way out? The DR would probably top the list!

Can the DR handle more immigrants from Haiti? Many of which will come from that nation's poorest situations, probably lacking the most basic education and trained working skills and rather used to live in crime riddled barrios?
Can the DR's frail social system take them up without collapsing and failing to it's own people?
Will the Dominican people accept more Haitians living among them?
Can the DR's government (afford to) withstand international pressure to freely accept undefined numbers of Haitian refugees and can it handle refugees in orderly manner so that they can be redistributed to other locations once they would be found?

I understand that this has ALWAYS been a delicate subject. One which can easily raise points which can easily at least be suspected to be driven by racial thoughts and nationalistic hatred. And especially in these days, I myself, writing these thoughts and questions of mine here, wonder if it is not just blatantly politically incorrect to bring this up at this time.
But on the other hand, I am almost certain, these are issues we will sadly have to confront, may be sooner than we would like to think.

So, lets try to discuss this in an educated manner, never forgetting to show respect for the hardship Haitians are going thru right now.


... J-D.

[Aeaefee]

I think your points are off base a little. You write about how over there may affect us over here. I tend to think there is no there, we are ALL here. Assume if you will the point of origination to be 15-30 miles east of where it actually was. You would still be in the hinterlands of Haiti but cities in the DR would be destroyed just as well. ANd then what would the people say internationally? Would they be like Pat Robertson and say the Dominicans made a deal with the devil? Would they blame the DR for lack of quality building standards and other equivalencies? I mean come on, they build roads here that dont stand up to a washout. So if a bunch of small cities were affected how could you help them? Cotui, San Jose, San Juan de la Maguana, Villa Gonzalez, Tamboril? Who would help? the PN? What would they do? How couldthey get the materials to them? And the chain of command? Who wouldit be? The General who got his job by favoritism and nepotism or through actual competence?
WHy did China, Cuba, Germany and Venezuela already ship goods and workers there but the US, France and Canada are contemplating?

[MightyMasc]

JD

You raise great points of discussion, but these questions you raise are difficult to answer. You can throw discussions on history, economy, politics, race, victory and definitively the endless animosity between Dominicans and Haitians. I mean all sorts of other discussions could be raise to truly have an answer to the effect of the expected Haitian diaspora in the DR. Can Dominican Republic handle it? My answer is NO...remember these points of discussion are subjective.

[Gedominew]

theres nothing subjective about THIS: The DR cannot even handle its own people. IT WILL NOT be able to handle millions of haitians on top of its own citizens....unless we are looking for MAJOR civil unrest and/or another war. Point blank.

[MightyMasc]

theres nothing subjective about THIS: The DR cannot even handle its own people. IT WILL NOT be able to handle millions of haitians on top of its own citizens....unless we are looking for MAJOR civil unrest and/or another war. Point blank.

What??? Millions??? Subjective???

"Your" opinion is what makes this discussion subjective...but you are right to an extend, I do not believe, Dominican Republic can handle the Haitian Diaspora. However, I'm not Sociologist, I would hate to write something completely out of context.

[errolespopume]

WHy did China, Cuba, Germany and Venezuela already ship goods and workers there but the US, France and Canada are contemplating?

Cuba didn't ship anyone there, they were Cubans already in the Country. There are huge amount of Canadian and American NGO and other Aid organizations that were already in Haiti. The Americans had troops and relief supplies on their way within hours, Canada had a recce team there immediately (next day) and have already send a team with water purification systems, doctors, nurses, engineers,...etc that arrived at noon today. You haven't got a frigging clue what you are talking about. The USA now has 2000 troops on the ground as well as an Aircraft carrier and hospital ship on their way. Canadian navy has 2 ships full of supplys on the way and Hercules leaving every couple of hours. I know because I'm where they are leaving from. Many countries have also sent teams.

[Gedominew]

let me clraify: what i meant is NOT subjective is the fact that the DR CANNOT HANDLE ALL THE DISPLACED HAITIANS. the DR is already poor and struggling.

i said millions as in pretty much all haitians. some people are saying a "montserrat" type relocation deal should be stricken and they should ALL be moved....either way....

whether it be millions or tens of thousands---things can and will get ugly.

if people are already up in arms about the haitians currently here, is it not a given that there will be MUCH more unrest if haitian refugees start flooding thru the borders en masse?

[HedgeYourBets]

Many flights from the U.S. are now being turned away from P Au P and redirected to Santo Domingo to unload their cargo and personnel there. The Dominican Army has mobilized cargo convoys to make the trip by road to the affected area. The USAF has taken over ATC duties at the L'Overture airport and army logistics units are being called to assist the Dominican cargo effort.

I would be interested to hear what DR1 "boots on the ground" are seeing there. It appears that most of the incoming aid for the next few days will be rerouted through the Dominican capital until the logjam of air traffic into Haiti's capital winds down.

Cargo is being staged and delivered by order of priority as determined by the organizing groups so food, water, medicine and EMS equipment and personnel are getting in first, then tents, clothing, etc. From our end it sounds like there is more official organization in Haiti right now than there has been since the days of PapaDoc. I'd be interested in the reality.

[Metalhead]

American, American Eagle to restrict bags on Haiti, Dominican Republic flights
3:45 PM Thu, Jan 14, 2010 | Permalink
Terry Maxon/Reporter Bio | E-mail | News tips

American Airlines said Thursday that travelers to Haiti (when travel to Haiti resumes) and the Dominican Republic won't be able to bring extra bags through Feb. 14.

That means no "excess, oversize and overweight baggage."

Said American:

For the next 30 days, customers traveling to these destinations will be allowed to check two pieces of baggage of normal checked-bag size and weight - up to 50 pounds and 62 dimensional inches each. Customers will also be allowed one properly sized carry-on bag.

... Sports equipment, such as golf bags, bikes and surfboards, may be checked as part of the total checked-bag allowance, although additional charges may apply.

The restrictions will apply to Port-au-Prince when flights resume and to the DR cities of Santo Domingo, Santiago and Puerto Plata, American said.

[bromgeksan]

WHy did China, Cuba, Germany and Venezuela already ship goods and workers there but the US, France and Canada are contemplating?

Dude, read the news already!

These off the cuff posts are starting to remind me of Mirador.

[Aeaefee]

Cuba didn't ship anyone there, they were Cubans already in the Country. There are huge amount of Canadian and American NGO and other Aid organizations that were already in Haiti. The Americans had troops and relief supplies on their way within hours, Canada had a recce team there immediately (next day) and have already send a team with water purification systems, doctors, nurses, engineers,...etc that arrived at noon today. You haven't got a frigging clue what you are talking about. The USA now has 2000 troops on the ground as well as an Aircraft carrier and hospital ship on their way. Canadian navy has 2 ships full of supplys on the way and Hercules leaving every couple of hours. I know because I'm where they are leaving from. Many countries have also sent teams.

You re incorrect. I heard the President say what they were planning to do. I heard Robert Gates and the General of US Southern Command say what they were going to do. I primarily heard fear mongering. There were not American military in country. The largest NGO in Haiti was the UN, who contigent was largely Brasilian peacekeepers. And to be clear those NGOs you mention arent even in a position to aid anyone they are trying to recoup and regroup, counting the losses of personal, materials, and space. Even the NGOs need aid. Your American NGOs are mercenaries, private police force and the like, hired guns, they are not humanitarians at all. Those Hercules planes must be leaving for Las Vegas because they havent gotten to Haiti, but I do recall this morning 4am hearing on the BBC that the Chinese have already delivered aid, and Venezuela and Cuba has already sent aid and additional medical teams and a naval hospital. I like you bob, but the Commies beat you on this one.

[errolespopume]

You re incorrect. I heard the President say what they were planning to do. I heard Robert Gates and the General of US Southern Command say what they were going to do. I primarily heard fear mongering. There were not American military in country. The largest NGO in Haiti was the UN, who contigent was largely Brasilian peacekeepers. And to be clear those NGOs you mention arent even in a position to aid anyone they are trying to recoup and regroup, counting the losses of personal, materials, and space. Even the NGOs need aid. Your American NGOs are mercenaries, private police force and the like, hired guns, they are not humanitarians at all. Those Hercules planes must be leaving for Las Vegas because they havent gotten to Haiti, but I do recall this morning 4am hearing on the BBC that the Chinese have already delivered aid, and Venezuela and Cuba has already sent aid and additional medical teams and a naval hospital. I like you bob, but the Commies beat you on this one.

You know there's old saying about removing all doubt. I saw the Canadian C130 at the P au P airport on Wed, and I saw the Canadian C17 there at noon today. You are correct about China, you are wrong about Cuba. The Cubans were already there.

[Aeaefee]

[quote]let me clraify: what i meant is NOT subjective is the fact that the DR CANNOT HANDLE ALL THE DISPLACED HAITIANS. the DR is already poor and struggling.

i said millions as in pretty much all haitians. some people are saying a "montserrat" type relocation deal should be stricken and they should ALL be moved....either way....

whether it be millions or tens of thousands---things can and will get ugly.

if people are already up in arms about the haitians currently here, is it not a given that there will be MUCH more unrest if haitian refugees start flooding thru the borders en masse?

[ddxbovMQ]

from the WSJ:

The Toussaint L'Ouverture International Airport in Port-au-Prince is overwhelmed. The U.S. Federal Aviation Administration has put a ground stop into place for all U.S.-originating civilian aircraft until 6 p.m. EST. Military flights carrying water purifying equipment, medicine and generators have been given priority to land.

Parking space on the airport ramp is limited, and many military and humanitarian aircraft are already on the ground there. About a dozen planes are sitting on the tarmac, with another 20 on the grass. The airport has also run out of aircraft fuel, so inbound planes have to carry enough fuel to be able to leave without refueling.

According to the FAA, the humanitarian response is so overwhelming that air-traffic controllers in Haiti can't handle the volume of flights arriving in Port-au-Prince. The airspace "is saturated," said Kathleen Bergen, an FAA spokeswoman for the agency's southern region in College Park, Ga. Aircraft are holding in the air and en route to Haiti, she said, because the capital's airport isn't accepting any additional flights at the time.

[phernikas]

Hopefully something positive arise from this disaster!!!

[PerfectCreditForYou]

I posted this in the other thread (the sticky one), but I think it also fits in this thread.

I'm not saying it's closed. They asked him if the DR would open its borders when masses of haitians would try and leave the country. LF clearly dodged that question and said that the DR would not expect masses of haitians to flee.

of course the border is not closed at the moment, but if the situation in haiti gets worse, which it will due to the complete collapse of the countries center of infrastructure and administration, people will try to seek refuge in the DR. And when the attention of the world has shifted elsewhere, which it will in about a week, than the borders will get closed.

Even if the border is closed, the injured will be allowed to enter the DR for treatment.

If an exodus is allowed to occur, I just don't know what such mass of people will do in the DR. There are only so many jobs and tourists are easily spooked by mass of truly starving people. Having even lower wages is not really desirable for workers (Dominican and otherwise) in the DR.

So, if they were all allowed in, the only possible solution will be:

A) Squatting in public and private land all over the countryside for more conucos (this could be problematic, especially when it comes to private property).

B) Encroachment on the national parks for the new conucos.

C) The rapid swelling of slums all over the country. This means more illegal taps into the electric grid, more demand for water, bathrooms/letrines, etc.

D) Rapid swelling of the destitute begging in the streets. It might become like India, where even in the ritziest areas you find hoards of destitute people begging.

E) Expect spike of crime as the young guys (most Haitians are very young) become disenfranchised with their reality.

F) Expect the Dominican middle class to flee to the US in disgust of the downward spiral the country will find itself in, further hurting the strained economy.

Its either keep the disaster to Haiti and protect the DR so it can still offer help (and an economy from which they can still send over US$300 million in remittances to Haiti), or let the exodus take place and have a crisis in Haiti AND the DR.

Then what?

What good will come out by plunging the entire island in the crisis? The only thing I can think of is the world feeling better for the DR "sacrifice" its self and then, as usual, the world forgets about the island and go on with their lives.

Anyone have any other possibilities?

[Aeaefee]

I posted this in the other thread (the sticky one), but I think it also fits in this thread.

F. How do you know these middle class Dominicans could get into the US? These things work in chain reactions. You create hindrances or acceptance here and they work in the same manner down the line. You re saying that accepting(obligatorily) these people will ruin the economy here. And the people with means will leave. But what if the rules for leaving change with the economy? I mean all your middle class Dominicans come to the US and now what? They have to compete with 10%(government statistic) unemployment? Wouldnt the Americans consider the middle class DOminican the same way you consider the impoverished Haitian? As a threat to my livelihood and economic vitality?

[PerfectCreditForYou]

F. How do you know these middle class Dominicans could get into the US? These things work in chain reactions. You create hindrances or acceptance here and they work in the same manner down the line. You re saying that accepting(obligatorily) these people will ruin the economy here. And the people with means will leave. But what if the rules for leaving change with the economy? I mean all your middle class Dominicans come to the US and now what? They have to compete with 10%(government statistic) unemployment? Wouldnt the Americans consider the middle class DOminican the same way you consider the impoverished Haitian? As a threat to my livelihood and economic vitality?

The US has 300 million people and the DR has around 4 million people in the middle class and up.

Hm, that's half NYC's population.

Now, imagine 4 million new middle class spread all over the US east coast.

What will the impact be? Will it be catastrophic?

Haiti has 10 million people, 8 million of whom are very poor. The DR has another 10 million people.

The fact is that a massive exodus of educated and productive people to a country that has 30 times more people is not the same as having a massive influx of poorly educated and poor people to a country that has the same number of people.



BTW, I said the U.S., but the U.S. is not the only country that Dominicans would opt to go. There are many other countries in Europe and Latin America that are appealing in that type of circumstance.

And some countries might even ask Dominicans to move there, like Puerto Rico (yes, I know its a Commonwealth of the US) that actively sent a ferry to take any Dominicans in the middle class and upwards that wanted to move during the 2004 crisis while, at the same time, they turned away the poor that were arriving in yolas.

[xyupi]

WHy did China, Cuba, Germany and Venezuela already ship goods and workers there but the US, France and Canada are contemplating?

contemplation:

Video - USAID Efforts in Haiti CNN.com

Those Hercules planes must be leaving for Las Vegas because they havent gotten to Haiti The Area 51 phantom Hercules:

Video - Aid Efforts in Haiti CNN.com

.

[strollerssfsfs]

Given the unprecedented nature of this human catastrophe, this xenophobic Dominican ultra-nationalist would not object to the DR taking in as many Haitians as it deems necessary to assist in this unbelievable tragedy.

Also, I wouldn't object to seeking out a humanitarian solution to the 2 million + Haitians within the DR who reside illegally by granting amnesty and possibly temporary or permanent residency.